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General skills worth less than 20K?
Block 1%  1%  [ 1 ]
Dauntless 5%  5%  [ 5 ]
Dirty Player 2%  2%  [ 2 ]
Fend 5%  5%  [ 5 ]
Frenzy 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Kick 2%  2%  [ 2 ]
Kick-Off Return 13%  13%  [ 12 ]
Pass Block 23%  23%  [ 22 ]
Pro 6%  6%  [ 6 ]
Shadowing 15%  15%  [ 14 ]
Strip Ball 2%  2%  [ 2 ]
Sure Hands 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Tackle 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Wrestle 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
I voted 25%  25%  [ 24 ]
Total votes : 95
 
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 Post subject: General skills needing a price drop?
 Post Posted: Sun May 29, 2016 8:08 am 
Legend
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Hi all,
sorry for the 10 fairly identical posts. I'm playing around with the idea that when players level-up, some skills are considerably better than most, and could be priced more fairly at 30K, while others are considerably weaker than most, and could be priced fairly at 10K.

So, in this poll, please let me know which General skills you think are worth less than the current 20K Price tag.

If a skill is in a rare situation worth more than it generally is, then please vote with the general situation, and make a post in this thread about the special case. (An example could be Strip Ball being worth more for Wardancers than for most other players).

Also, please click the "I voted" option when voting.

Thanks all
Martin

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 Post subject: Re: General skills needing a price drop?
 Post Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 12:33 pm 
Legend
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Hi all,
thanks to the 8-9 people who contributed so far.
For this quick write up, I've changed the Price of any skill which was voted on by at least half the voters.

General
30K: Block, Tackle
20K: Dauntless, DP, Fend, Frenzy, Kick, Pro, Strip Ball, Sure Hands, Wrestle
10K: Kick-Off Return, Pass Block, Shadowing

Agility
30K: Dodge
20K: Catch, DT, Jump Up, Leap, Side Step, Sprint, Sure Feet
10K: Diving Catch, Sneaky Git

Strength
30K: Guard, Mighty Blow, Claw
20K: Break Tackle, Grab, Juggernaut, Stand Firm
10K: MultiBlock, Strong Arm, Thick Skull

Passing
30K: Leader
20K: Accurate, Dump-Off, Pass
10K: HMP, NOS, Safe Throw

Mutations
30K: Claw
20K: Big Hand, Extra Arms, Horns, Tentacles, 2-Heads
10K: Disturbing Presence, Foul Appearance, Prehensile Tail, Very Long Legs

Interesting stuff!
It remains whether mere price changes would be enough to remedy the difference in power, or whether merging skills, buffing and/or nerfing would work better.
Also, I'm a touch surprised by a few of these. Like Pro being worth 20K. In all my Blood Bowl playing years I've taken it maybe a handful of times, and always as a (doomed?) experiment. Is anyone taking pro?

Still. Interesting stuff. At least to me :D
Cheers
Martin

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 Post subject: Re: General skills needing a price drop?
 Post Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 12:49 pm 
Experienced
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The issue I found with most skills when I went to vote them down in price, is the question of which players need them, and when. Most skills become exceedingly useful to one player type or another at some stage in their career, and at that point I tried to imagine whether it's fair that those players should only then pay 10k to pick that skill up. Invariably I concluded no!

You called out Strip Ball as an example, and Pro may well fall into that category too. Is it worth 20k to most players at most times? No. Is it worth 20k to a developed player with plenty of non-critical easy rolls to make that you often want to reroll but can't affrod to waste actual rerolls on? Probably yes.

In the end I didn't vote down any skill because of this, and personally would be much more comfortable with house rules that only increased the cost of a few skills, rather than looking to make some cost 10k.


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 Post subject: Re: General skills needing a price drop?
 Post Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 1:16 pm 
Legend
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Hi Fold,
Thanks for your input!
I see what you mean, and this is surely the case with some skills.
For others (IMO: Pro) the answer is still no.
I don't think heaping on any number of skill increases will salvage Pass Block. Sure, you could build a pass block specialist, where you could argue that Pass Block could be worth 20K - but then I'd respond that you'd already made a lot of sub-optimal choices, so you'd still have buggered yourself on the value.

In my experience, standard choices get the job done. (Which is kind of a shame). If your player has A or S access, then you can go all the way to legend without picking anything funky.

Sure, I remember the time (way back when) when my ghoul with a doubles skill won me a big game with his Hail Mary Pass. But what also comes to mind is all those times where I wish I had just taken sidestep.

Cheers
Martin

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 Post subject: Re: General skills needing a price drop?
 Post Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 1:17 pm 
Legend
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Or to put it differently. I know lots of players WHO have managed to build a great player on a great team. So have I. Not once did I think, 'Yes!, this is the perfect time to take Pro'.

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 Post subject: Re: General skills needing a price drop?
 Post Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 1:24 pm 
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plasmoid wrote:
It remains whether mere price changes would be enough to remedy the difference in power, or whether merging skills, buffing and/or nerfing would work better.

It wouldn't. The reason is that TV is not the limiting factor, the number of skill slots is. If I can take 6 skills which are deemed 30k skills I will do so simply because it'd produce a better player than 6 10k or 20k skills. If you want to change the way people choose skills you have to address the limited skill slots.

For example (and this is merely a rough idea), you could say that your skills cost the above on normals or +10k on doubles (like now), but have your skill roll define the value of skills you could take. For example:
2: you must choose 10k-worth of normal skills or a 10k doubles skill
3-5: you must choose 20k-worth of skills
6-8: you must choose 30k-worth of skills
9: you must choose 40k-worth of skills, or +AV plus a 10k skill
10: you must choose 40k-worth of skills, or +MA plus a 10k skill
11: you must choose 40k-worth of skills, or +AG at a cost of 40k
12: you must choose 50k-worth of skills, or +ST at a cost of 50k

Rough idea, as I say, and it needs work, but the aim is to alleviate the limitation on skill slots so those aren't the premium.


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 Post subject: Re: General skills needing a price drop?
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:51 am 
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dode74 wrote:
For example (and this is merely a rough idea), you could say that your skills cost the above on normals or +10k on doubles (like now), but have your skill roll define the value of skills you could take. For example:
2: you must choose 10k-worth of normal skills or a 10k doubles skill
3-5: you must choose 20k-worth of skills
6-8: you must choose 30k-worth of skills
9: you must choose 40k-worth of skills, or +AV plus a 10k skill
10: you must choose 40k-worth of skills, or +MA plus a 10k skill
11: you must choose 40k-worth of skills, or +AG at a cost of 40k
12: you must choose 50k-worth of skills, or +ST at a cost of 50k

Rough idea, as I say, and it needs work, but the aim is to alleviate the limitation on skill slots so those aren't the premium.


This would be intresting to try out. I would prefer f the roll just "banked" the player skill points that the player could use on skills/stats when and how he wanted. Not that i know how balansed it would be or how it should be combined with further restrictions/changes. I like that players are still differently talanted, and would prefer my tweak to create a way to get statincreases less dependent on random skillroles.


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 Post subject: Re: General skills needing a price drop?
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 12:44 pm 
Ex-Cyanide/Focus toadie

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adhansa wrote:
I would prefer f the roll just "banked" the player skill points that the player could use on skills/stats when and how he wanted. Not that i know how balansed it would be or how it should be combined with further restrictions/changes. I like that players are still differently talanted, and would prefer my tweak to create a way to get statincreases less dependent on random skillroles.
It's an interesting idea, but I think it would see a proliferation of statfreaks. Furthermore, making actually taking a skill optional would be a perfect way to minmax teams. It's something we saw back in Cyanide's BB1 when a bug made taking skills optional: lots of dorfs teams were rolled, got guard and MB on the linemen and then never levelled again.


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 Post subject: Re: General skills needing a price drop?
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:55 pm 
Legend
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Quick update (and ill disguised bump):
For general skills, Kick-Off return is just on the brink of the 10K cut-off point.
The current list looks like this:
30K: Block, Tackle
20K: Dauntless, DP, Fend, Frenzy, Kick, Kick-Off Return, Pro, Strip Ball, Sure Hands, Wrestle
10K: Pass Block, Shadowing

Cheers
Martin

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 Post subject: Re: General skills needing a price drop?
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:00 am 
Legend
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Hi Dode,
in many ways I like your suggested table and skill stacking. However, having thought about it - and followed similar discussions elsewhere - I'm inclined to prefer buffing and nerfing skills instead.
I think it is already quite tricky to keep track of the skills players have in a mid-high TV game, and heaping on even more skills due to extra picks will make that even harder.
Also, the number of skills in the game isn't very noob friendly, so I wouldn't mind personally if a few skills got deleted/nerfed in the process.

Quote:
It wouldn't. The reason is that TV is not the limiting factor, the number of skill slots is. If I can take 6 skills which are deemed 30k skills I will do so simply because it'd produce a better player than 6 10k or 20k skills. If you want to change the way people choose skills you have to address the limited skill slots.

Depends. If your 100K Blitzer takes 6 Premium skills, he is 280K. If mine takes 6 weak ones, he is 160K. The question is whether I can get good value from the 120K TV difference.
It won't make everything equal. But I think it makes for a more interesting choice.

As stated, I do agree that there are more efficient ways to tweak the skill system.
I guess it is a matter of preference whether one would call them efficient or (too) heavy-handed.

Cheers
Martin

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