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 Post subject: BB2016 Redrafting fail
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:54 pm 
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My league is mid-season and won't be adopting any new rules until February, but we are starting to ponder how we are going to change. Death Zone introduced a lot of new league rules. Taken as a total package, I may not like it, but I could try to accept it. Unfortunately, I think some of the new rules absolutely do not work for us. I am looking for ideas that this community thinks might work for us.

Current situation:
Three seasons per year with single elimination playoffs at the end.
To compete in playoffs a team must have 4-10 games played in the season or be a brand new coach if less than 4 games.
Perpetual league. Regulars have and bring multiple teams each week.
No fixed schedule during season.
Generally, voluntary match up by team value during weekly games. (I might not get to play my current favorite team if nobody else wants to play similar team value.)
Excessive CPOMB is discouraged socially because people can choose not to play against that team during season.
We like this open schedule.

The redrafting is where I have a big problem applying the new rules to our league. All teams don't play the same number of games. The casual coaches get screwed for redrafting if they only played a few games. The regulars now only focus on their main team to get their games in, forcing greater TV differences. (And, probably less fun games for underdogs)

Yes, encouraging casual players to be regulars is great, but running some off would be worse. I think any redrafting based directly or indirectly on games played would be bad for our league. Yet a non-merit based redrafting I think would be daft.

D3 MVP makes little sense to me, without redrafting it makes none.
Healing Niggles makes more sense with redrafting, but I think it's relatively insignificant overall.
I think Expensive Mistakes is necessary with redrafting, but can easily replace Spiraling Expenses.
Wants to Retire has no effect without redrafting.
Piling On removal/nerf can be tied in with this, but gets complicated. Since I joined, in 13 playoffs an elven race has won 10 times. No winner had CPOMB. I don't think a winner ever had PO. Nerfing bashy teams will bring less balance to our league.
Without redrafting, there is less reason to not blow treasury to make imbalanced game in playoffs. This is also complicated with tactics and random. But, less reason to keep treasury without redraft.

I am trying to see the best way to adopt the most new rules without the problems raised by our open schedule.
Is there a redraft mechanic that doesn't screw casuals or have harsh impact on open schedule?
One thought is only teams in the playoffs have to redraft, after playoffs. Probably change wants to retire to playoff not season based. Harder on casuals, but not brutal.
Another is redraft after X number of games. Forced redraft just prior to playoff would suck. But I guess the coach could just choose another team for playoffs. Plan accordingly.

If you throw out redrafting, what would you do with MVP and high treasury/inducements not affecting TV?

Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: BB2016 Redrafting fail
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:57 pm 
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You're echoing an interesting topic on Fumbbl. Because that site is one perpetual league, there's a bit of discussion on how things would work.

http://www.fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PN ... ic&t=28459

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 Post subject: Re: BB2016 Redrafting fail
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:22 pm 
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How about a system with a fixed redraft base that does not include bonuses for matches, cas and tds.

Instead of counting seasons played you count matches played to see if players retire. If a team pass 10-sets of matches played during a season they have to add a season to all players and work out want to retire otherwise not. Or matches played individually on playerbasis instead.


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 Post subject: Re: BB2016 Redrafting fail
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:00 pm 
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Sounds like you might as well ignore the new rules and stick with CRP if it's working for you.

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 Post subject: Re: BB2016 Redrafting fail
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:44 am 
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The number of game for redrafting should be between 14 and 16 (8 coaches' division, 2 games against each plus semifinal and final).

Should be something around this.


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 Post subject: Re: BB2016 Redrafting fail
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:33 pm 
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Rolex wrote:
The number of game for redrafting should be between 14 and 16 (8 coaches' division, 2 games against each plus semifinal and final).

Should be something around this.


This may be fine for one style of league but it isn't for many others... What if a league has teams playing a different amount of games and not using a fixed structure?

Part of the beauty of the CRP system was that it worked just fine in TT. I have reset my team each year and never feared playing a fourth year team even with Elves. The inducement system gave me enough of a make up to keep things reasonably competitive.

My league is banging their head against a wall trying to figure out the math to accommodate veteran and new teams. Unless there are separate divisions it doesn't work. And if a veteran team only plays a handful of games in a season their team is pretty much destroyed.

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 Post subject: Re: BB2016 Redrafting fail
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:53 pm 
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celticgriffon wrote:
What if a league has teams playing a different amount of games and not using a fixed structure?

There are a number of ways of doing this, I think. One way is to determine the mean reward for each thing (played, TD and cas) and then offer tiered rewards based on team results. So if your median games played (using median instead of mean to prevent individuals overly changing the result) is 10 you can offer a base reward of 100k for games played. Teams with 0-7 get 80k, teams with 8-12 get 100k and teams with 13 or more get 120k, perhaps with the top teams getting a small extra reward. You can do the same with either straight TD and cas, or with TD and cas per game (if you want it more equitable).
If you find the rewards at the end of the season are too small you could add to the base 1M gold you get at the start of the season to give teams a boost.
If it's veteran teams who have played a number of seasons who are being hit then they could get a "veteran's bonus" based on the number of seasons the team has existed: a new team gets nothing, a one-season team gets 100k, a 2-season team gets 200k up to a max of whatever you want.

One of the things I like about it is how flexible you can be while still maintaining the apparent intent of keeping teams' growth in check. It's ageing which you have some say over.


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 Post subject: Re: BB2016 Redrafting fail
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:23 pm 
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dode74 wrote:
There are a number of ways of doing this, I think.

You missed the most obvious one:

Ignore it.

If the CRP method is working for you and your league, and the new version is not going to, don't use it!

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 Post subject: Re: BB2016 Redrafting fail
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:42 pm 
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I agree 100% with you Darkson.

I think what were running into here is the new player angle. We all want to grow our league. But the new people are gonna roll in with their shiny new guides and then be confused when we dump a bunch of "house rules" (as they are gonna perceive it) on them. And we dont want to lose those new players.

I had a game with a new guy and he seemed very put off when I made him roll his mvp randomly.


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 Post subject: Re: BB2016 Redrafting fail
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:22 pm 
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Darkson wrote:
dode74 wrote:
There are a number of ways of doing this, I think.

You missed the most obvious one:

Ignore it.

If the CRP method is working for you and your league, and the new version is not going to, don't use it!

I don't think "don't do it" qualifies as "doing this", personally. Not that I disagree with your overall premise: I was simply giving an option which might actually involve using something akin to the intended rules.


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 Post subject: Re: BB2016 Redrafting fail
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:59 pm 
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I'm 32 of 38 pages through the Fumbbl thread that was linked. Both here and there people are focusing on the seasons concept to the exclusion of the other factors. I even asked a specific question here, that not one person addressed. Darkson's comments while the closest to related are the obvious trivial solution. As usual, the trivial solution is a conversation stopper. It does not promote new thought or constructive conversation. Ignoring the new rules is a valid option. But I believe you must keep up with advancements. Either game rules or technology. Otherwise you get left behind. Blood Bowl is a small niche as it is. I think ignoring the new rules would make a league the backwater of the small niche. So unless the community refutes it as a whole, let's move on.

After lots of thought I am leaning towards accepting all the new rules and just making "Season End" occur after playoffs, only for teams that competed in the playoffs. If someone plays every week and plays in all three playoffs they will average 17 (including playoffs) games before needing to redraft. That realistically is about the top end of what appears to be the expected number of games the rules were designed for.

It will be slightly harder for casuals to compete in playoffs, but most variations of the season rules will cause that. If casuals never win playoffs, that is far from the end of the world.

The D3 MVP still seems off, but in conjunction with bash being hit harder than dash, I'm willing to try it.

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 Post subject: Re: BB2016 Redrafting fail
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:34 pm 
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Quote:
I even asked a specific question here, that not one person addressed.
I thought I did?


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 Post subject: Re: BB2016 Redrafting fail
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:47 pm 
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It's not a trivial answer, it's an honest one. Even if I liked the rule changes (disclaimer: I don't) they wouldn't work for us so I won't use them.
It sounds like you have a well run league, that works for you and your players, so I don't see why you feel you slavishly need to follow the rules in the book - your league isn't following the rules in the CRP.

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 Post subject: Re: BB2016 Redrafting fail
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:08 am 
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CyberedElf wrote:
I am trying to see the best way to adopt the most new rules without the problems raised by our open schedule.
Is there a redraft mechanic that doesn't screw casuals or have harsh impact on open schedule?
One thought is only teams in the playoffs have to redraft, after playoffs. Probably change wants to retire to playoff not season based. Harder on casuals, but not brutal.
Another is redraft after X number of games. Forced redraft just prior to playoff would suck. But I guess the coach could just choose another team for playoffs. Plan accordingly.

If you throw out redrafting, what would you do with MVP and high treasury/inducements not affecting TV?

Thoughts?
Forgive me, technically I asked 3 questions. Everyone focused on two (counting "Thoughts?"). And the third question I will split and rephrase to hopefully encourage thoughtful conversation.

How is balance of all the new rules affected by specific implementations (or exclusion) of redrafting? Do specific implementations of redrafting need changes to other rules, with consideration for intended balance and inclusion of new player base?

Darkson, I called what you said a "trivial solution." You may have mistook my meaning. http://www.mathwords.com/t/trivial.htm I did not intend to imply that your thoughts were trivial.

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 Post subject: Re: BB2016 Redrafting fail
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 1:12 am 
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Well I think the intent of the rules is to maintain teams in the 1500-2000TV range (based on Galak's response to a thread on farcebook). I think the current ruleset achieves that by basically lopping the top off the teams which have grown too big, while I think the apparent reduction in player attrition (healing niggles, PO etc) is aimed at preventing "teamdeath" scenarios (not that I think there were many of those, but when they happen I understand that they are frustrating). This has a combined effect of keeping teams within touching distance of each other and preventing spiralling success or failure. I think it also leaves plenty of room to tweak the desired range based on games played and on rewards, so the "balance" isn't particularly fragile as the redraft and treasury limitations (Expensive Mistakes) provides an upper bound and the reduction in attrition combined with an injection of cash every so often gives a lower bound. If you want to go higher then give more cash on redraft and if you want to go lower give less would seem to be the obvious tweak. There are a few ways to do that, too: longer seasons, for example, would give more end-of-season cash; simply increasing or decreasing the standard 1M you get on redrafting would also work; changing the rewards for TD and Cas makes it more results-based; etc.

tl;dr: no, I don't think other changes will be necessary. I think the bounds are set by the redraft variables you choose.


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