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 Post subject: Re: Grak and Crumbleberry
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:30 pm 
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OdoGoodgrubb wrote:
I can surely see why everyone is a bit frustrated with things like this, but in the end it doesn't really bother me because I feel confident that the player community will self-correct any problems that arise. I mean, the community pretty much ran the game for decades and some of our members are responsible for many improvements made to the rules during that time.

I'm just enjoying that the game is getting more attention, as well as new stuff to buy.


The worrying thing is if the designers are doing things like creating underpriced non-Loner star players with new untested skills on purpose, what other ill-conceived ideas are going to show up in the rules via DeathZone expansions?

Yesm the playing community can house rule against them, but a fractured rule-set with house rules aplenty is not great for the game.

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 Post subject: Re: Grak and Crumbleberry
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:39 am 
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Olaf the Stout wrote:
OdoGoodgrubb wrote:
I can surely see why everyone is a bit frustrated with things like this, but in the end it doesn't really bother me because I feel confident that the player community will self-correct any problems that arise. I mean, the community pretty much ran the game for decades and some of our members are responsible for many improvements made to the rules during that time.

I'm just enjoying that the game is getting more attention, as well as new stuff to buy.


The worrying thing is if the designers are doing things like creating underpriced non-Loner star players with new untested skills on purpose, what other ill-conceived ideas are going to show up in the rules via DeathZone expansions?

Yesm the playing community can house rule against them, but a fractured rule-set with house rules aplenty is not great for the game.


I think there is also the fact that GW has never really promoted competitive play. In my opinion competitive play is what has kept BB alive. Not so much the "competitive" side of things but the fact the tournaments provide a great place for BB players to get together etc. It is one of the things I love about the BB community.

So you have a company that historically cares nought for tournament play so makes decisions based on that. As a result, unbalanced, untested and crazy amounts of new rules in new locations spring up. Give it 6 months...NAF will take control again, and so will the community.


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 Post subject: Re: Grak and Crumbleberry
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:36 am 
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Darkson wrote:
Someone at the Open Day (J_Bone?) tweeted that Andy said the missing Loner was a typo.
(And he also said the same on FB, but I no longer have access to the link.)

Babs wrote:
Quote:
GW confirmed no loner is correct?

I flagged the issue with Andy Hoare, and was given a fairly terse reply:
Quote:
The rules for Grak and Crumbleberry are published as James intended them - they don't contain any typos and we're not going to publish an errata.

So Andy was telling porkie pies to someone (or doesn't have a clue). :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Grak and Crumbleberry
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:09 pm 
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Andy never said that it was a typo, he said he'd look into it. It has been looked into.

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 Post subject: Re: Grak and Crumbleberry
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:34 pm 
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He said it was a typo on Facebook, in reply to one of my posts.

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 Post subject: Re: Grak and Crumbleberry
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:39 am 
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er..... Isnt this thread about Grak? The BB2016 rules changes had their own thread....
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=43404

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 Post subject: Re: Grak and Crumbleberry
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:10 am 
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G&C are just one of the biggest fubars in an intensely unprofessional product so yeah, you WILL get crossthreading through the most common denominator. ...

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 Post subject: Re: Grak and Crumbleberry
 Post Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 2:33 pm 
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Well this was an interesting read.

@ JT-Y and Milo, with all due respect - you really should be consulting some of the more seasoned people on this web site. This is coming from someone who is hyper-critical of some of the people here and the shenanigans that went on during CRP. But ultimately without the 'seasoned pros' this game will die so you should be careful when adding nonsensical skills and rules. It would be wise to stop dismissing them. There is a lot of noise in BB forums, and many people are inexperienced and pretty clueless. But out right disregarding opinions from people that have played the game consistently for 30 years plus is a bit naive or possibly arrogant.

I agree the skills in this thread aren't a huge problems. But they also aint good for the game and send alarm bells ringing for the old heads as they are rules for rules sake.

I get you want to appeal to new customers. I really do. I get that flashy skills that sound zany etc... bring people in. Gaping Maw, Kick team mate although pointless and a bit daft - I do get, though missing out Loner, incorrect pricing is just sloppy, come on son.....

I agree that these skills have little to no effect on the game but that is a very poor defence for their inclusion. Weeping Blades; everyone here agrees is a very poor piece of game design.

Finally, have you considered creating a feedback thread to read through, and also a suggestions box? Yes you will get crack pots but there will also be rough diamonds.


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 Post subject: Re: Grak and Crumbleberry
 Post Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 6:26 pm 
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garion wrote:
@ JT-Y and Milo, with all due respect - you really should be consulting some of the more seasoned people on this web site.


ummmm... wasn't milo a member of the BBRC?

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 Post subject: Re: Grak and Crumbleberry
 Post Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 7:40 pm 
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yes back in Lrb1 to LRB3, 2001 - 2003, what's your point? Andy was too. That doesn't add or detract from any of the points made.


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 Post subject: Re: Grak and Crumbleberry
 Post Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 8:00 pm 
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oky dokes... you do you, bro.

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 Post subject: Re: Grak and Crumbleberry
 Post Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 1:32 pm 
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garion wrote:
yes back in Lrb1 to LRB3, 2001 - 2003, what's your point? Andy was too. That doesn't add or detract from any of the points made.


Just a correction, here, Andy Hoare was never a member of the BBRC. That was a different Andy, Andy Hall.

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 Post subject: Re: Grak and Crumbleberry
 Post Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 1:54 pm 
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garion wrote:
Well this was an interesting read.

@ JT-Y and Milo, with all due respect - you really should be consulting some of the more seasoned people on this web site. This is coming from someone who is hyper-critical of some of the people here and the shenanigans that went on during CRP. But ultimately without the 'seasoned pros' this game will die so you should be careful when adding nonsensical skills and rules. It would be wise to stop dismissing them. There is a lot of noise in BB forums, and many people are inexperienced and pretty clueless. But out right disregarding opinions from people that have played the game consistently for 30 years plus is a bit naive or possibly arrogant.

I agree the skills in this thread aren't a huge problems. But they also aint good for the game and send alarm bells ringing for the old heads as they are rules for rules sake.

I get you want to appeal to new customers. I really do. I get that flashy skills that sound zany etc... bring people in. Gaping Maw, Kick team mate although pointless and a bit daft - I do get, though missing out Loner, incorrect pricing is just sloppy, come on son.....

I agree that these skills have little to no effect on the game but that is a very poor defence for their inclusion. Weeping Blades; everyone here agrees is a very poor piece of game design.

Finally, have you considered creating a feedback thread to read through, and also a suggestions box? Yes you will get crack pots but there will also be rough diamonds.


Okay, there's a lot to unpack here. I'm not sure you can find any instances of me "dismissing" seasoned pros, here, so I think that's the wrong foot to start off on. I have always tried hard to listen to different opinions and I don't tend to dismiss people just because they believe differently. But I'm human, so if I have indeed done it, I'm sorry. It wasn't my intent.

So, based on feedback from the release of BB2016 and DZ1, Andy and James have assembled a rules review and playtest group, of which JT-Y and I are both a part of. (There are others, as well, but I leave it up to them if they choose to out themselves or remain anonymous.) Two things to take away there: Andy and James LISTENED to the feedback, realized that a change was necessary, and implemented it; and the playtest group wasn't in place during the time BB/DZ1 and some other rules were written, and so have no responsibility for those rules.

Next, please understand that production timelines are a very real thing, and many of the items you have seen up to this point (including Grak and Crumbleberry, and the Human Nobility/Savage Orc teams) were written long ago. They predate the involvement of the playtest group.

What you have been seeing up to this point is largely rules that were written prior to the release of BB2016 and all of the feedback. I think James and Andy have both listened to the feedback and now recognize that those "seasoned pros" you refer to expect a different rules balance than WH40k or AOS players do, and have adjusted their style as a result.

I can point to four items that the playtest group was involved with so far: DZ season 1 errata, DZ season 2, the WD/BG rules, and the optional rules for the Special Play cards. So you can judge our impact, for better or for worse, on those items, at least so far. Generally speaking, the feedback to those items I have seen has been positive.

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 Post subject: Re: Grak and Crumbleberry
 Post Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 2:30 pm 
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
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Quote:
I can point to four items that the playtest group was involved with so far: DZ season 1 errata, DZ season 2, the WD/BG rules, and the optional rules for the Special Play cards.


I like all new stuff! But why put Dirty Tricks at 1 point when picking cards? Is that playtested? Compared to Miscellaneous Mayhem 4 points!

Hmmm....


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 Post subject: Re: Grak and Crumbleberry
 Post Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 3:47 pm 
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The only other thing I will add to what Milo says is that anyone involved in playtesting signs a Non Disclosure Agreement, and that means we legally cannot consult with anyone outside of the group, which consists of us and the games developers, on anything GW chooses to show us or asks us to comment on.
So it doesn't matter how seasoned or capable anyone outside that group thinks they are, you will not find myself, Milo, or anyone consulting with them.

But let me add to that, that doesn't mean we don't want feedback, or GW doesn't read forums like this. We do and they do. All I'd ask is that you try and avoid sweeping statements that discount the existence of players who have different expectations from the game, or too much passion that risks burying logic.
I'll always discuss stuff, but I won't enter into arguments. Nor will I be drawn into stating an opinion about something other than to say that I like it. If I have criticisms I'll voice them in the playtest group rather than in public, which I'm sure everyone can agree is the most effective place to do it.

Myself and Milo in particular will always share any insights we can and even rumours when we're allowed to. Hopefully that has some value.
GW ain't your enemy guys, Andy and James love BB as much as we do.

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