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 Post subject: Re: Grak and Crumbleberry
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:30 pm 
Star Player
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OdoGoodgrubb wrote:
I can surely see why everyone is a bit frustrated with things like this, but in the end it doesn't really bother me because I feel confident that the player community will self-correct any problems that arise. I mean, the community pretty much ran the game for decades and some of our members are responsible for many improvements made to the rules during that time.

I'm just enjoying that the game is getting more attention, as well as new stuff to buy.


The worrying thing is if the designers are doing things like creating underpriced non-Loner star players with new untested skills on purpose, what other ill-conceived ideas are going to show up in the rules via DeathZone expansions?

Yesm the playing community can house rule against them, but a fractured rule-set with house rules aplenty is not great for the game.

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 Post subject: Re: Grak and Crumbleberry
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:39 am 
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Olaf the Stout wrote:
OdoGoodgrubb wrote:
I can surely see why everyone is a bit frustrated with things like this, but in the end it doesn't really bother me because I feel confident that the player community will self-correct any problems that arise. I mean, the community pretty much ran the game for decades and some of our members are responsible for many improvements made to the rules during that time.

I'm just enjoying that the game is getting more attention, as well as new stuff to buy.


The worrying thing is if the designers are doing things like creating underpriced non-Loner star players with new untested skills on purpose, what other ill-conceived ideas are going to show up in the rules via DeathZone expansions?

Yesm the playing community can house rule against them, but a fractured rule-set with house rules aplenty is not great for the game.


I think there is also the fact that GW has never really promoted competitive play. In my opinion competitive play is what has kept BB alive. Not so much the "competitive" side of things but the fact the tournaments provide a great place for BB players to get together etc. It is one of the things I love about the BB community.

So you have a company that historically cares nought for tournament play so makes decisions based on that. As a result, unbalanced, untested and crazy amounts of new rules in new locations spring up. Give it 6 months...NAF will take control again, and so will the community.


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 Post subject: Re: Grak and Crumbleberry
 Post Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:39 pm 
Goblin Fancier

Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:59 pm
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Location: Iowa, US
Olaf the Stout wrote:
From various discussions I've read it seems like James and Andy are really taking a "we know best" approach.

This star player, along with other changes they have made, worry me as I don't feel like they do know what's best (and I'm clearly not alone).


We did an entire episode about this - that feeling that GW has only gotten back into BB in the last two years yet feels good about changing things to the detriment of the game. We, the worldwide BB community, kept the game alive and vibrant for over a decade without GW then they roll in and start changing stuff? It is absolutely that "we know best" approach mentioned above.

We actually got some feedback regarding that episode that worried we weren't giving Andy and James a fair shake. I think they are well-intentioned but adopting this slash-and-burn approach instead of simply making great minis and a nice hardbound LRB6.0 rulebook to sell to an already vibrant community is short-sighted and not in the best interest of the game.

That said, the community will survive and the game will as well. It is just really looking like a massive missed opportunity on GW's part.

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 Post subject: Re: Grak and Crumbleberry
 Post Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 11:11 pm 
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Okay, I'll bite: What have they changed, I mean, actually changed? What is different between the CRP and BB2016 that is ruining it for you? This is not a chance to complain about optional rules that have been added and can be ignored as you wish, I want an actual list of changes made to the core rules.
And what indicates a slash and burn approach to the game?

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 Post subject: Re: Grak and Crumbleberry
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:06 am 
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JT-Y wrote:
Okay, I'll bite: What have they changed, I mean, actually changed? What is different between the CRP and BB2016 that is ruining it for you? This is not a chance to complain about optional rules that have been added and can be ignored as you wish, I want an actual list of changes made to the core rules.
And what indicates a slash and burn approach to the game?


The "core" rules, i.e. passing, blocking, etc. next to If not nothing. They did change quite a bit with Death Zone season one and League play. You may consider these "optional" but many people try to play as close to these as possible and some of the changes are not balanced and may start to splinter the player base, which GW could care less about as long as they are making money.


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 Post subject: Re: Grak and Crumbleberry
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:36 am 
Da Spammer
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Location: Fundamentaling for the BB Illuminati
Darkson wrote:
Someone at the Open Day (J_Bone?) tweeted that Andy said the missing Loner was a typo.
(And he also said the same on FB, but I no longer have access to the link.)

Babs wrote:
Quote:
GW confirmed no loner is correct?

I flagged the issue with Andy Hoare, and was given a fairly terse reply:
Quote:
The rules for Grak and Crumbleberry are published as James intended them - they don't contain any typos and we're not going to publish an errata.

So Andy was telling porkie pies to someone (or doesn't have a clue). :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Grak and Crumbleberry
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:09 pm 
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Andy never said that it was a typo, he said he'd look into it. It has been looked into.

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 Post subject: Re: Grak and Crumbleberry
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:34 pm 
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He said it was a typo on Facebook, in reply to one of my posts.

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 Post subject: Re: Grak and Crumbleberry
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:23 pm 
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JT-Y wrote:
Okay, I'll bite: What have they changed, I mean, actually changed? What is different between the CRP and BB2016 that is ruining it for you? This is not a chance to complain about optional rules that have been added and can be ignored as you wish, I want an actual list of changes made to the core rules.
And what indicates a slash and burn approach to the game?



I agree with this question what has changed, what actually matters?
1. Pile on moved to optional and costs a Reroll - I get that some people loved it but it doesn't seem missed in our BB16 league with a lot of old school coaches. Obviously the Claw-PO-MB builds are nerfed but does that matter.
2. Expensive mistakes in place of spiraling expenses - again doesn't seem to be a problem in our league. Spiraling expenses doesn't seem to be 'missed' by long term coaches.
3. Human catchers cheaper - seems not to be any complaints.
4. Argue the call is back - most everyone seems to be love this.
5. Complicated End of Season rules - seems to be a bit of a pain in the neck but not really an issue for non league play. So far hasn't been an issue for league play locally.
6. Timmm-ber added for Halfling treemen - again seems well received universally
7. MVP is now to one of three assigned players. Seems well received no more dead lineman getting the MVP
8. Weeping Dagger added to gutter runners - universally thought to be a mistake but also one universally though to come up fairly rarely.
9. No wizards - beats me how folks feel about this change. Wouldn't surprise me if they made a return in deathzone 2 or dungeonbowl
10. Various positional name changes - who cares? Call them the old names if you like.
11. 21 teams instead of 24 NAF teams - clearly an issue but some of those teams (Slann) haven't fit GW's miniature line and fluff for decades (I played 3rd ed WFB and 2nd ed BB when a slann team made more sense.)


@Sundevil I had the same feel listening to your recent episodes. In my opinion it felt like you weren't giving new BB a fair shake. Just a listener who otherwise very much enjoys your show.


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