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 Post subject: Re: Goblin Roster DZ2
 Post Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 3:55 pm 
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Wizards proper are in a later book.

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 Post subject: Re: Goblin Roster DZ2
 Post Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 4:01 pm 
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Yea, looking forward to this one. At 80 pages, sounds chunky and I like that they are compiling skills lists across sources. A good step towards a unified reference material.

Oh and James mentions that Wizards haven't been forgotten. I think I have only seen them in play once or twice, so I'll be excited to see them when they get added sometime down the road. All the mention of coaches also makes me wonder if they will release a pack of Coach minis somewhere down the road.

EDIT: Oh yea, also interested to see the Chaos All-Stars teams. I love the crazy figs that Phil had come up with for the original team. I don't know that those players will show up in the book, but I'm going to keep my fingers crossed.

crazy figs:
http://31.media.tumblr.com/134fcda7d28cf6aec9dffd5dd3978d21/tumblr_mm13sskrjf1r1g40zo1_1280.jpg

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 Post subject: Re: Goblin Roster DZ2
 Post Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 5:08 pm 
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faust_33 wrote:


If they did a made to order recast of that team it would see like hot cakes, real figures (not fake recasts) sell for quite a lot on ebay. That said I'm not sure GW own the original greens for them any more. They may be in Tom Anders hands now. Can't say for sure though.


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 Post subject: Re: Goblin Roster DZ2
 Post Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 7:41 pm 
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I actually don't mind the roster tweaks, even though I've been vocally harsh on other roster changes on 3DB. How the Ooligan isn't some sort of Dirty Player fouler (with appropriate cost) is beyond me. I have no idea how he is playable in his current state. But he also isn't required to play, so its a missed opportunity (one of many) to be sure, but certainly doesn't ruin the team.

But the way they are offering minis is garbage. I love the 80s but it isn't 1986 anymore. Time to release COMPLETE TEAMS and not make players jump through hoops to gather minis. The ForgeWorld exclusivity for anyone over the pond is just pathetic. I own a game shop and I can't even order them through my GW rep. And now they make a team, Goblins, that CANNOT BE COMPLETED unless you go through ForgeWorld. Weak.

Leaving Blitzers and Gutter Runners out of teams was bad enough. My guess is the weapons were left out because you can't make two identical sprues in a team box with all those unique models.

The DZ II rulebook seems like a marked improvement over DZ 1 at least. Of course, the entire thing should have been put out as a single, EDITED edition, but hey they couldn't continue to sell us volumes then now could they?

Our leagues are healthier than ever. I like a LOT of the products GW is putting out. But their decision making still makes me think they haven't played BB more than a year or two and I haven't seen anything from GW that has changed my mind.

BB will always be a great game and the community is stellar. The list of GW's missed opportunities grows and grows but the game will survive.

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 Post subject: Re: Goblin Roster DZ2
 Post Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 8:05 pm 
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To be fair, you have to buy multiple packs of mini's to complet a team when buying from companies like Willy or Gazpez.

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 Post subject: Re: Goblin Roster DZ2
 Post Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 10:39 pm 
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Sorry. But. We might have missed opportunities and it´s good to call GW out on them regarding miniatures, some sloppy ules, etc. So they learn and can do better.

But, no excitment about the new stuff seems a bit wrong to me. New Stars are awesome. Imagine Goblins with Doom diver, Hooligan and Squig. What a nice set up regarding miniatures on the table. New stuff! Compare this with Weaping Dagger.

You can (if you want to) set up two Ball and Chain players while playing Skaven. You can play Glart Sr. and Glar Jr. together. I like that cheap Helf Star Player. He will help rookie teams.

Miniatures`? If GW does not meet your needs go to third party. Or go second edition. Go old Warhammer. Go Age of Sigmar. A guy in my league has a bunch of Night Goblins, a Doom Diver and a Squig in his bits box. Green Stuff for the rest. He´s excited. He wants to build a Goblin team. HE WANTS TO BUILD A FRICKIN´GOBLIN TEAM! What could be more awesome than that! Tell me! I know, a box of the whole team with all positionals would be tits. I get it.

Still, sorry for my drunk excitment. I fell that GW should be still criticised for things they do bad/wrong. That is always a good thing if constructive. But they should also recieve positive feedback in my book for some of the new things.

All IMHO.


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 Post subject: Re: Goblin Roster DZ2
 Post Posted: Fri May 19, 2017 4:00 am 
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Bakunin wrote:
To be fair, you have to buy multiple packs of mini's to complet a team when buying from companies like Willy or Gazpez.

Do you mean for 16+? Because:
http://www.gaspez-arts.com/mice/team-topi.html All positionals except big guy.
http://willyminiatures.com/product/draconian-team/ All the big and plenty of tiny.

3rd parties have progressed towards "offer common rosters" (Gaspez frogs had 3+3 instead of 4+4) if not just 15-16 or more, specially when crowdfunding. Yet also provide singles by just a bit more cash (4th and 4th for the frogs, all different designs). And staff.

Yes, you will be able to find the odd 3rd party, uncomplete, full of repeats, poor packs, specially when looking at the first launched. I am talking about how things have evolved, what people expect and others companies offer. Those littly punny companies.

GW could had offered better Human, Orc and Skaven sprues.


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 Post subject: Re: Goblin Roster DZ2
 Post Posted: Fri May 19, 2017 10:57 am 
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
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Heroic_Tackle wrote:
Sorry. But. We might have missed opportunities and it´s good to call GW out on them regarding miniatures, some sloppy ules, etc. So they learn and can do better.

But, no excitment about the new stuff seems a bit wrong to me. New Stars are awesome. Imagine Goblins with Doom diver, Hooligan and Squig. What a nice set up regarding miniatures on the table. New stuff! Compare this with Weaping Dagger.

You can (if you want to) set up two Ball and Chain players while playing Skaven. You can play Glart Sr. and Glar Jr. together. I like that cheap Helf Star Player. He will help rookie teams.

Miniatures`? If GW does not meet your needs go to third party. Or go second edition. Go old Warhammer. Go Age of Sigmar. A guy in my league has a bunch of Night Goblins, a Doom Diver and a Squig in his bits box. Green Stuff for the rest. He´s excited. He wants to build a Goblin team. HE WANTS TO BUILD A FRICKIN´GOBLIN TEAM! What could be more awesome than that! Tell me! I know, a box of the whole team with all positionals would be tits. I get it.

Still, sorry for my drunk excitment. I fell that GW should be still criticised for things they do bad/wrong. That is always a good thing if constructive. But they should also recieve positive feedback in my book for some of the new things.

All IMHO.


+1 to all this really. The game is moving in the right direction now. Hopefully the mistakes are behind them.

Also worth mentioning you can get full teams, 16 players Underworld team is for sale, and Dwarfs too.

Personally the way Skaven were packaged wasn't even a problem, as long as I can buy the additional models without having to buy a team a 2nd team, and we have been told that expansion packs will be available post Warhammer Fest.

A little story - Back in 3rd edition era I had to buy two team boxes to complete one team, and in the case of Chaos Dwarfs, 1 team and 3 Htharks. 3!!!! (and Hthark was expensive). Now I do remember a catalogue being produced in 2003 I think it was, but iirc everything was online and I didn't have internet back then so I had no choice but to own duplicate teams.

So the way things are being handled regarding the miniatures seems better than any time back since 2nd edition.


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 Post subject: Re: Goblin Roster DZ2
 Post Posted: Fri May 19, 2017 11:33 am 
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Steam Ball wrote:
GW could had offered better Human, Orc and Skaven sprues.


How? Everyone wants to say "GW should have done better". So put your money where your mouth is: how would YOU have done it differently?

But let's set some ground rules:

For each of those teams, you are allowed to design ONE sprue. It can hold six figures. A team box set will contain two identical sprues. You may, at some point later, be able to sell an expansion pack of resin characters to add variety to the team. In addition, because they will be included in the box set, the Orc and Human teams should be roughly equal. For the Skaven team, you should keep in mind the long term goal of selling Underworld teams when the Goblins are released.

Now: go! Give us your ideas.

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 Post subject: Re: Goblin Roster DZ2
 Post Posted: Fri May 19, 2017 12:56 pm 
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Milo wrote:
Steam Ball wrote:
GW could had offered better Human, Orc and Skaven sprues.

How? Everyone wants to say "GW should have done better". So put your money where your mouth is: how would YOU have done it differently?

Personally; having alternative heads would have been a good start. Also the blister pack of alternative posses being available at the start for people that wanted 4 Runners without having to buy two team boxes. Now that probably means less sales, and thus less profit, on the initial boxes but that is what I would have done.


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 Post subject: Re: Goblin Roster DZ2
 Post Posted: Fri May 19, 2017 1:07 pm 
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Lyracian wrote:
Milo wrote:
Steam Ball wrote:
GW could had offered better Human, Orc and Skaven sprues.

How? Everyone wants to say "GW should have done better". So put your money where your mouth is: how would YOU have done it differently?

Personally; having alternative heads would have been a good start. Also the blister pack of alternative posses being available at the start for people that wanted 4 Runners without having to buy two team boxes. Now that probably means less sales, and thus less profit, on the initial boxes but that is what I would have done.


I agree, I think adding some alternative heads/shoulder pads, etc. would have been an improvement. We're seeing them put them out now as the Bright Crusaders and the Orcland Raiders, but it would have been great if we could have had some in the sets themselves.

Would you have been willing to delay the Skaven team booster (or the entire release of the game) until May 2017 so that it could launch at the same time as the booster pack? It's kind of a catch-22: the Skaven team sold so well that it's easier to justify the investment in producing additional figures; if they didn't have sales figures from the initial release, they may not have been able to afford it.

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 Post subject: Re: Goblin Roster DZ2
 Post Posted: Fri May 19, 2017 1:39 pm 
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Milo wrote:
Would you have been willing to delay the Skaven team booster (or the entire release of the game) until May 2017 so that it could launch at the same time as the booster pack? It's kind of a catch-22: the Skaven team sold so well that it's easier to justify the investment in producing additional figures; if they didn't have sales figures from the initial release, they may not have been able to afford it.


No as you need to start selling something to make a profit. However if the up front design had been interchange heads and The throwers tail with the ball as a separate peice so you could turn any linerat into the Thrower it would have been a better set. I am not a designer I do not know how much that would effect the chance to launch or production costs.


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 Post subject: Re: Goblin Roster DZ2
 Post Posted: Fri May 19, 2017 3:37 pm 
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"How?".

Don't think alternate shoulder pads would've been worthwhile in the first sets. I actually prefer the route they took with the Bright Crusaders and Orcland Raiders. Yea, I know, I was skeptical of the Crusaders at first. The more I looked at them though, I realized that they were much closer to the original plastic Human team I've been playing with. Now I think they are way cooler than what we got in the box. Same goes with the Orcland Raiders. But I want some different BOB models before I even think about purchasing more Orcs.

Alternate heads is an excellent idea though. I think I would've been happier to see alternate heads instead of the token pieces. The turn markers, footballs, and reroll tokens were kinda cool...but if you buy two boxes to get a full team, you end up with way more footballs, rerolls, etc. than you need.

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 Post subject: Re: Goblin Roster DZ2
 Post Posted: Fri May 19, 2017 5:54 pm 
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Milo wrote:
Steam Ball wrote:
GW could had offered better Human, Orc and Skaven sprues.


How? Everyone wants to say "GW should have done better". So put your money where your mouth is: how would YOU have done it differently?

But let's set some ground rules:

For each of those teams, you are allowed to design ONE sprue. It can hold six figures. A team box set will contain two identical sprues. You may, at some point later, be able to sell an expansion pack of resin characters to add variety to the team. In addition, because they will be included in the box set, the Orc and Human teams should be roughly equal. For the Skaven team, you should keep in mind the long term goal of selling Underworld teams when the Goblins are released.

Now: go! Give us your ideas.


Why would it have to be 12 models in a box? That was a choice GW made and, most of GW plastic units are not in packs of 12, usually it is 10 of 20 and they have done units of 16 such as the dryads. The complaint wasn’t so much about the make up of a box of 12 than why a full team of 16 was not available for purchase.

The obvious ideal from a customer point of view would be to bump the plastic spruce up to 8 models rather than 6, that way you could have a full team of 16 with a separate big guy as needed (or included for stunty teams where they are 0-2 or 0-6). You would then have 2 different sculpts for the 0-4 positionals as well. So a human spruce would have 2 blitzers, 2 catchers, 1 thrower and 3 linemen, whilst skaven would have 2 gutters, 1 blitzer, 1 thrower and 4 linemen.

Even better would be modular players, have multiple heads, limbs and bodies to allow you to make 16 unique players and easily kitbash with other plastic models. The 3 balls, coin and marker from each spruce could have been used for alternate parts.
Sadly GW seem to be moving away from that for pretty much everything that isn’t space marines now. You get cool dynamic poses like the dark elf witches, but only 5 unique models. Which are harder to convert and quickly gets repetitive in a unit of 20.

For 40K and AoS units you usually get way more bits than you can possibly use. Often a boxed set is able to create 2 different unit types and they could have done this with Blood Bowl.

Of course the practicalities of this are what really matter, designing models that are modular and work with multiple poses is much harder. You would struggle to have black orcs and orc throwers have interchangeable parts for instance.
That isn’t even covering all the difficulties of fitting the bits on the spruce and the spruces in a box.

I see the logic of this, Blood Bowl is a pretty small part of GW’s business, they didn’t know if these would sell so just created a bare bones team of 12. However if the Blood Bowl models keep selling so well and customers are saying they want to buy a full team when it comes out. So the plastic boxed set and forgeworld booster pack at the same time then I can see them taking this into account. Hopefully future teams will have everything out at the same time. Goblins being available in packs of 4 or 12 was a good start as they could be used for Orcs, underworld or to boost normal goblin teams if you want to skimp on trolls or weapons.

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 Post subject: Re: Goblin Roster DZ2
 Post Posted: Fri May 19, 2017 10:33 pm 
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garion wrote:
it would appear this is swoop.

* You use the throw-in template when scattering a TTM. You move like a Ball and Chain

* +1 landing role

* You can not use stunty when dodging, ie, you get minus for opponent's tackle zone

Hmmm, so you want Dodge first for survivability (similar to the Looney, considering Chainsaw disabling it to move after an attack), then Leap for surpassing the OTT defensive line. That's a very specific build for a player, in order to use it properly. I like the possibilities the player can give, but being a tournament player, I doubt that you'll see them often, as you'd need 2+ skills for it to become more (and more) useful for your team, compared to everything else that is available to you.

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