My Approach on Balancing / the Basics

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Thu Jun 13, 2002 2:50 pm

There are 3 types of Players: Regular Players, Big Guys, Little Ones

There are 3 Types of Star Players: Regular Star Players, Big Guy Star Players, Little One Star Players

There are 2 Types of teams: Strenght Teams and Agility Teams.

There are 3 alligiances a Team can have: Good Teams may ally Good, players Evil Teams may ally with Evil players Neutral may may ally with neutral players.

Every Player Has to Have a Title, and a Position
Positions are: Thrower, Kicker, Lineman, Blocker, Catcher, Blitzer

Every Team can pick up to 16 players. Every Team can pick up to 4 Little One's. Agility Teams can pick up one Big Guy.Strength Teams can Pick up two Big Guys. Up to 4 DIFFRENT Players on the team may be Starplayers.
Up to 2 regular Players may be from a allied players, including regular Star Players.

Starplayers will not sing up with a Team until its Team rating is 200.
Starplayers are bound to their Position. A Big Guy Starplayer uses a Big Guy slot on the Team Roster, a Little One Allstar uses one of the 4 little one Slots, and a Human Allstar Blitzer uses one of the 4 Blitzer slots on the Human Team. Star Players charge apperance Fees for each Game they play. Regular Allstar Players from allied Races use one of the 2 allied races slots.

Regular Player Races: (alligiance)
Human (g), Norse (n), High Elf (g), Amazon (g), Orc (N), Dwarf (g), Wood Elf (N), Lizardmen (N), Chaos (E), Undead (E), Dark Elf (E), Skaven (E)

Big Guy Player Races: (will play for)
Troll (Orcs, Dwarfs, Undead), Treeman (Wood Elf), Rat Ogre (Skaven), Ogre (Humans, Orcs), Minotaur (Norse, Chaos), Kroxigor (Lizardmen), War Engine (Dwarf, Undead), Unicorn (Amazon, High Elf), Barbarian (Human, Norse), Bull Centaur (Dark Elf, Chaos)

Little One Player Races: (will play for)
Halflings (Human, Norse, High Elf, Amazon, Woof Elf), Goblins (Orcs, Lizardmen), Hobgoblins (Dwarfs, Chaos, Dark Elf), Gutter Runners (Skaven), Ghouls (Undead)
(little ones are very fragile, add +1 to every injury roll they must take)

Regular Starplayers: (Race)
Count Drakenborg (Undead), Zzharg Madeye (Dwarf), Varag Ghoul Chewer (Orc), Sillibilli (Lizardman), Prince Moranion (High Elf), Mighty Zug (Human), Lord Borak the Despoiler (Chaos), Air Jordell (Wood Elf), Horkon Heartripper (Dark Elf), Hakflem Skuttlespike (Skaven), Grimm Ironjaw (Dwarf), Griff Oberwald (Human)

Big Guy Starplayers: (Race)
The Deathroller (War Engine),Deeproot Strongbranch (Treeman), Grashnak Blackhoof (Minotaur), Hthark the Unstoppable (Bull Centaur), Ripper Bolgrot (Troll), Morg'n Thorg (Ogre), Headsplitter (Rat Ogre), Thrud (Barbarian)

Little Ones Starplayers: (Race)
Scrappa Sorehead (Hobgoblin), Nobba Blackwart (Hobbgoblin), Fungus The Loon (Goblin), Bommer Dribblesnot (Goblin).
Halfling Master Chef (Freebooter Team Coaching Staff)

This is just the pure Concept of new Team Rosters and i will try to build detailed rosters and special rules for each of the 12 "official" Teams.
Anyone who likes (some of) that concept ?

McDeth · Post by **McDeth** » Thu Jun 13, 2002 3:30 pm

I dont think that Goblin and Halfling team were created to be balanced with the other teams. While i understand what you are trying to do, i would prefer that the core rules were adhered to with regards basic team make up and development. Most players will choose a goblin or halfling team for the fun element. Not as their first team who they see as genuine contenders but as a second choice team.
Plus the thought of being able to win with them and causing great embarrassment to the loser is abig plus. I think what you are trying to do is to create your own house ruled version, which is fine, but i prefer the rulkes a they stand now.

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Thu Jun 13, 2002 3:41 pm

My Goal is to create 12 as perfectly as possible balanced, while still unique teams races.

The Resources i use are Living Rulebook, A League of Their Own, and 4th Edition Gold Blood Bowl.

I try to combine Elements that are already in the Game in a way that creates 12 Teams of 2 Types and 3 Allegiances, and distribute Features along these to point out their specific Character.

I try to stick as close to the original rules as possible, which i want to ajust only if imbalances occur.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Thu Jun 13, 2002 4:26 pm

Couple problems or clarifications needed:

1) Under the LRB rules (2001 Rules Review) very very very few teams will ever see TR 300. So no team will ever be able to get a star and at TR 300 the new cash table would never give you enough cash to pay the appearance fees so even if someone did get there they could not afford the star.

2) There are no rookie stats for a War Engine, Barbarian, or Unicorn ... how would these work as Big Guys ... ie you'd have to create your own version of the rookies.

3) With your system, I can have a Chaos team with a Dark Elf Thrower and a Mummy ... cool!!!! Throw in 4 Goblins as cheap fodder along with a Bull Centaur Big Guy (or maybe Mino if I want the TTM play) and I'm ready to rock and roll. AG 4 players allied on teams with ST 4 players was one of the "great evils" of the old ally system.

4) If you are going to allow mass allying like this ... I really suggest that you read Eric Reiter's article on possible new LRB ally rules in House Rulez Magazine #2. If you took your ideas and included everything from his article, you might be okay.

Galak

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Thu Jun 13, 2002 4:55 pm

Thx for your Opinion Galak, you made some very good Points.

As i stated in the beginning this would only provide a basic system to start with. I comment your Points now,

Team Rating 300 is taken from the Experimental "A League Of Their Own" Rules by Andy Hall. The Number 300 is subject to discussion, of course. 50 Starplayerpoints contribute 10 Points to the Team rating. I was thinking about various possibilitys to award more starplayer points.
(for example one SPP per player and game), that would also counter the problem of replacing veteran players on Premier League Teams (TR300+)
The Second component is Money which should be more easier to get.
(especially when you think of the possibility to buy magic items like Magic Helmet for your team which could be a cool feature as well) Premier League Teams recieve Sponsoring, Appearance Fees should be cheaper in my mind.

Regarding the Big Guys, in my first version (trying not to change to much from the Original Game) i would say only the Teams that have Rookies Availiable may use Big Guys, until they reach TR300 and can draft an Allstar Big Guy. Althoug i do not see a huge problem in designing rookie big guys by downgrading the Allstars.

Your third Point is the Most difficult to solve; You are simply right - there must be some kind of restriction for "Killer Combos". - But keep in mind that a TR300 Dark Elf team is a Powerhouse as well, so Chaos Teams that care about the Ball could be an enrichment to the Game.

Point 4 is close to Point 3, Allying has to be carefully balanced and restricted where necessary.

anyway thanks 4 your opinion !

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Thu Jun 13, 2002 8:49 pm

Okay, Toby, I don't mean ANY offense by this ... but the road you are traveling down will lead to a league with more house rules in it then the MBBL2 or worse the BOBBA league.

Also I find it fascinating that in one thread you started you discuss 100% compatible software to have a 10,000 member on-line Blood Bowl gaming community all using the same rules and yet the rules you want are a long step away from the 2001 Rules Review which is widely regarded by most as one of the best thought out rule sets yet. I don't see how your two desires will ever meet.

You'll never have a 10,000 member community when the game played in the community deviates so far from the official rules. .... I'm pretty sure you understand that, so I'm guessing you are suggesting that the rules needed changed due to imbalance issues. Other than your comments about Halflings and Goblins (which don't count for team balance questions), I'm not sure I understand why the need for the sweeping change and I'm definitely not sure I understand the need for a return to allies .... heck, I've cut them waaaayyyy back in my league to the point where they are flavor for the most part.

Galak

longfang · Post by **longfang** » Thu Jun 13, 2002 9:42 pm

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Thu Jun 13, 2002 9:44 pm

Agreed, longfang

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Thu Jun 13, 2002 9:47 pm

An ally system is needed to include the possibility of player trades, which is, a MAJOR Feature of online play. A coach that is lookin for a Player with certain skills will only have to look at the free agents Board and get an agreement on the players price with the coach who owns the player.

this will be a superb way of getting rid of mistaken-skilled players who might fit into an other teams game plan.

I consider the current rules _NOT_ good. To make that perfectly clear.
The Balance is _BAD_.

If you knew Starcraft, you knew what imbalance does. We would end up with Online Blood Bowl where 90% of the Teams are (lets say) Orc, and the rest is some Humans and a Few elves.

I want to see all races used and every matchup as balanced as possible.

So, i never said this is going to be simple.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Thu Jun 13, 2002 10:14 pm

Toby wrote:We would end up with Online Blood Bowl where 90% of the Teams are (lets say) Orc, and the rest is some Humans and a Few elves.

I want to see all races used and every matchup as balanced as possible.

So, i never said this is going to be simple.

Toby,

This is so far from accurate as to be amazing.

I could site many, many examples from leagues that post their composition online, but I'm just going to use one. The MBBL is a league using ONLY the LRB as its rule ... that's it ... no house rules. It has 26 coaches running 26 teams from 8 different countries so its a decent example of a small world community league.
The league's composition is: 2 Amazon, 1 Lizardman, 1 Halfling, 1 Goblin, 3 Dwarf, 1 Chaos Dwarf, 2 Orc, 3 Undead, 1 Chaos, 1 Norse, 3 Human, 2 High Elf, 2 Dark Elf, 1 Wood Elf, and 2 Skaven teams

All 15 teams are represented with no team having more than 3. There is no team making up 90% ... only a few making up 10%.

If you want an even greater example reaching into house rules; use the MBBL2 which has an unbelievable 76 different rosters allowed in it.
http://www.midgardbb.com/MBBL2/MBBL2_RaceStats.htm
Out of 133 teams that have played in the league to date, its spread all over the place with no team even making up double digits % of the total.

The fact is that your statements

I consider the current rules _NOT_ good. To make that perfectly clear.
The Balance is _BAD_.

are truely your opinion and are opinions that the available data out there doesn't support.

If you want to create house rules for your own league ... again ... carry one good sir and when you get your online league started let me know. But as for official changes to the rules needed, I cannot agree.

Galak

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Thu Jun 13, 2002 10:21 pm

Ok that was an exageration, i admitt. I have a lot of experience in Starcraft where certain matchups used to be imbalanced resulting in everyone playing Protoss because they were considered the best race.

This is my concern of balancing. I will present you the results of my newly designed 12 Races, with Regular, Big Guy and Little One Players and I hope to get you to think a little bit into it.

I have trouble describing something that isnt fully developed yet. Its only an Idea that might work.

regatrds, Toby

christer · Post by **christer** » Thu Jun 13, 2002 10:21 pm

I want to see all races used and every matchup as balanced as possible

.. Which currently is how the game is (again, disregarding gobbos and halflings)..

To me, it seems like you have only played a few games against unexperienced teams. As an unexperienced player, you will most likely succeed using teams with lots of skills to start with, helping you to manage the lots and lots of (often unnessecary) rolls you make.

You should really try to find a way to play more games against several coaches.. Also, watching as many games as possible will give you an idea on how well balanced the game is. Also, try to watch the same (experienced) coach play the various teams and you'll quickly see Blood Bowl is very much dependant on coach skill, which in turn indicates that the teams are balanced against eachother.

-- Christer

Acerak · Post by **Acerak** » Fri Jun 14, 2002 2:38 am

There's some confusion here, I think, between "equal teams" and "balanced teams." While "equal teams" are also "balanced teams," "balanced teams" are usually not "equal teams."

And that's good! I think most of us might be bored stiff if every team were essentially a clone of every other team. If you want to have fun with that type of play, I recommend trying a Human Pub Team League or a Goblin Tribal Leeg. Both of these would be HILARIOUS fun

-Chet

P.S. You can find the house rules article (containing both leagues) in the Blood Bowl 2002 Annual.

SixFootDwarf · Post by **SixFootDwarf** » Fri Jun 14, 2002 2:09 pm

Amen, Chet!

I say parity is for the birds. You'll always have ST teams vs. AG teams, then Humans/Norse/Amazons in the middle. If it's not broke, don't fix it...and it's not broke.

As far as the allies thing...I think the best thing the BBRC ever did was tear up the Allies rules. Think about it...I know everyone here noticed the Skaven Dilemma: 2 Rat Ogres, a Troll, a Mummy, a Death Roller and 4 Gutters. I have never heard of a sicker team.

I played that team for 2 15 game seasons and lost a grand total of 4 games. It was madness.

Playing through the weaknesses of you team is what makes Blood Bowl so fun. Improvise, adapt, overcome.

jeffzimm1 · Post by **jeffzimm1** » Fri Jun 14, 2002 2:24 pm

Agreed. What is so exciting about playing a team that has no weaknesses that can be exploited?

Half the fun of the game is coming to that point where your key play hinges on a risky maneouver. A troll throwing that gobbo for a TD (or maybe eating him?) for example.

Halflings and Gobbos are really meant as the comic relief, IMO. They are there for those looking for a bit of creative fun, not for those looking for a serious 1st place contender.