Toby,
Since you are new, under a person login on the left you see a description.
For most people this describes the number of posts they've made to the board:
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Then there are a couple of folks with special titles:
Da Boss: this is Johnny ... its his board he makes the rules
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The important one here is Rulz Guru ... get one of these guys to answer you and that's as close to gospel as you'll get.
Galak
Big Guys, Starplayers and Freeboters / Team Re-Rolls ?
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GalakStarscraper
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Toby
Galak, i can 100% agree with your last post. Since both of our rule interpretation was almost identical (exept the original Question all or only one Blocking die), the argument was pushed to far and i am sorry for that.
The makers of the Living RB ask for hints and help regarding unclear text passages so maybe that arguing wasn't to bad after all.
My intention was not to flame you, but i have to constantly defend my self partly because i cant point my arguments out as exactly as i could in german.
My intention was to force you to seriosly think about my argumentation, and im glad you did.
Cheers, Toby.
The makers of the Living RB ask for hints and help regarding unclear text passages so maybe that arguing wasn't to bad after all.
My intention was not to flame you, but i have to constantly defend my self partly because i cant point my arguments out as exactly as i could in german.
My intention was to force you to seriosly think about my argumentation, and im glad you did.Cheers, Toby.
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Acerak
- Rulz Guru
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To settle this as clearly as I can:
1. Star Players can use Team Re-rolls. This will likely be changed in October, because they train with the team as often as Big Guys!
2. Freebooted players can use Team Re-rolls. This may also change, though it's not a big issue in my book. It's easy to tell where Morg is on the pitch. It's not so easy to find those damn Amazon War Slaves!
3. Pro allows you to re-roll ALL the dice involved in a throw.
The proof of this last point lies on page 14 of the Blood Bowl Handbook. (I'll avoid referencing the LRB for two reasons: first, it isn't complete and accurate yet; second, it lacks page numbers at the moment!)
And I quote:
Re-rolls are very important in Blood Bowl, as you will quickly discover. There are two types of re-roll: team re-rolls and player re-rolls. In either case, a re-roll allows you to re-roll all the dice that produced any one result. So, for example, a re-roll could be used to re-roll a dodge, in which case the sngle dice rolled would be thrown again, or a three dice block, in which case all three dice would be rolled again, and so on.
That spells out the contentious issue exactly: you can, in fact, re-roll all three dice.
The 2001 Rules Review made only one change to any of this - namely, you can't re-roll armor or injury rolls. So that means that right now, Pro is a 50/50 shot to force a re-roll that might not work. But yes, it gives you a full (normal) re-roll if it does work.
I understand that various passages will seem confusing to some people, but not every misreading is cause for a clarification. I will see what I can do to spell this out in the future, however.
Thanks.
-Chet
1. Star Players can use Team Re-rolls. This will likely be changed in October, because they train with the team as often as Big Guys!
2. Freebooted players can use Team Re-rolls. This may also change, though it's not a big issue in my book. It's easy to tell where Morg is on the pitch. It's not so easy to find those damn Amazon War Slaves!
3. Pro allows you to re-roll ALL the dice involved in a throw.
The proof of this last point lies on page 14 of the Blood Bowl Handbook. (I'll avoid referencing the LRB for two reasons: first, it isn't complete and accurate yet; second, it lacks page numbers at the moment!)
And I quote:
Re-rolls are very important in Blood Bowl, as you will quickly discover. There are two types of re-roll: team re-rolls and player re-rolls. In either case, a re-roll allows you to re-roll all the dice that produced any one result. So, for example, a re-roll could be used to re-roll a dodge, in which case the sngle dice rolled would be thrown again, or a three dice block, in which case all three dice would be rolled again, and so on.
That spells out the contentious issue exactly: you can, in fact, re-roll all three dice.
The 2001 Rules Review made only one change to any of this - namely, you can't re-roll armor or injury rolls. So that means that right now, Pro is a 50/50 shot to force a re-roll that might not work. But yes, it gives you a full (normal) re-roll if it does work.
I understand that various passages will seem confusing to some people, but not every misreading is cause for a clarification. I will see what I can do to spell this out in the future, however.
Thanks.
-Chet
Reason: ''
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Thadrin
- Moaning Git
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Toby
I would like to point out that the result, how the rule was applied, is the same on both "interpretations". Regarding the Blocks, we too, agreed that since a team te-roll allows ro re-roll up to 3 dice, Pro does the same.
I hope you agree with me that the "Language Barrier" is a Problem that has to be adressed. Generally it is better to only have an exact English version of Blood Bowl instad of badly translated Language Versions.
However, the Core-Rules have to be really simple english, while the "colour commentary" can be challenging without causing trouble.
Things like:
"Die" "Dice" "Dices" / anyone any one / any ONE roll / any one ROLL
are not that easy for a non-native speaker.
A friend of mine who is an english teacher by now, did that "wrong" translation. And i will e-mail him now because if you folks are correct he owes me a crate of beer.
Finally, I try to phrase a NEW description for the Pro skill:
"Once per team turn, the Player is allowed to use a *personal* re-roll, as if the coach had taken a *team* re-roll.
However, before the re-roll may be made, his coach must roll a dice. On a roll of 4, 5 or 6 the re-roll may be made. On a roll of 1, 2 or 3 the original result stands and may not be re-rolled with a skill or team re-roll."
I hope you agree with me that the "Language Barrier" is a Problem that has to be adressed. Generally it is better to only have an exact English version of Blood Bowl instad of badly translated Language Versions.
However, the Core-Rules have to be really simple english, while the "colour commentary" can be challenging without causing trouble.
Things like:
"Die" "Dice" "Dices" / anyone any one / any ONE roll / any one ROLL
are not that easy for a non-native speaker.
A friend of mine who is an english teacher by now, did that "wrong" translation. And i will e-mail him now because if you folks are correct he owes me a crate of beer.
Finally, I try to phrase a NEW description for the Pro skill:
"Once per team turn, the Player is allowed to use a *personal* re-roll, as if the coach had taken a *team* re-roll.
However, before the re-roll may be made, his coach must roll a dice. On a roll of 4, 5 or 6 the re-roll may be made. On a roll of 1, 2 or 3 the original result stands and may not be re-rolled with a skill or team re-roll."
Reason: ''
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SixFootDwarf
- Experienced
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Toby, regardless of language barriers, Galak is right and you were wrong. Simple as that.
A 'Die' is one multi-sided object used for games. 'Dice' is the plural form. 'Dices' is not a word.
Pro allows you to throw the same number of 'dice' as you did before. Meaning you make another roll.
Ist nicht schwer.
A 'Die' is one multi-sided object used for games. 'Dice' is the plural form. 'Dices' is not a word.
Pro allows you to throw the same number of 'dice' as you did before. Meaning you make another roll.
Ist nicht schwer.
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NightDragon
- Legend
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My opinion
I don't care if this causes offense, but this debate should have ended a long while ago. It is quite clear that Toby is wrong and that Galak knows what he is talking about. If Toby cannot accept that then find another board to whinge on, but you will only get the same answer. DD.
Reason: ''
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Toby
I am NOT "wrong".
Based on the 3rd Edition only, Pro was to mighty, since it Allowed Re-Rolls on Armour and Injury.
This dispute was between Galak and me, and the 2 of us have understood each others point of view and Ageed on the way the Rule has to be applied from the very beginning. I think I can speak for Galak when i say that we agreed that the original text had to be fixed, what happened (no armour and injury rerolls) and that it might be missleading. (what acually happened to me)
I am tired to repeat my self over and over. If you are unable to read and or try to follow an argumentation the please simply shut up. thx.
Based on the 3rd Edition only, Pro was to mighty, since it Allowed Re-Rolls on Armour and Injury.
This dispute was between Galak and me, and the 2 of us have understood each others point of view and Ageed on the way the Rule has to be applied from the very beginning. I think I can speak for Galak when i say that we agreed that the original text had to be fixed, what happened (no armour and injury rerolls) and that it might be missleading. (what acually happened to me)
I am tired to repeat my self over and over. If you are unable to read and or try to follow an argumentation the please simply shut up. thx.
Reason: ''
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DaFrenchCoach
- Super Star
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Toby,Toby wrote:I am NOT "wrong".
Based on the 3rd Edition only, Pro was to mighty, since it Allowed Re-Rolls on Armour and Injury.
This dispute was between Galak and me, and the 2 of us have understood each others point of view and Ageed on the way the Rule has to be applied from the very beginning. I think I can speak for Galak when i say that we agreed that the original text had to be fixed, what happened (no armour and injury rerolls) and that it might be missleading. (what acually happened to me)
I am tired to repeat my self over and over. If you are unable to read and or try to follow an argumentation the please simply shut up. thx.
just a few words in order, I hope to close the debate. Please take a look on your posts here and you will see, although I can of course understand more than you expected the language barrier, a lot of people answered to you. One of the last was Chet, and Neoliminal from BBRC. BBRC: Yeah, the makers of 2K1 Rules set themselves. Galak is one of the most important people in the small Blood Bowl community. . So when they answered, you can 1/ Thank him 2/ Consider what he wrote (yeah, he took time for it
is correct 2/ Stop simpering ! I studied law for 5 years, and I can say a law never exactly give a rule, but more often a framework. I can develop on the common points between Law and Rules set, but now I'm really tired from talking about that. The rule is very clear for native, not for you: translate it well, and listen what the native players have to say !
You came in a place, saying (very) loud you're working on an ambitious project, that you want to make 6th Edition, a starcraft-like project, that the most important part of us are without creativity, want to force 10000 people to play with your house rules, now it's time to stop. You told us we're unable to follow your argumentation, I didn't see in your posts something that could be the same for you.
Reason: ''
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Toby
Again, even if its very tiering:
Based on the 3rd Boxed Rules edition ONLY, Pro was to Mighty, because it allowed armour and injury re rolls.
In an attempt to figure out if that was correct, people in my gaming group came up with what was considered to be the correct translation.
The result was limiting pro to dice rolls where only one die is used.
That was in 1996, not knowing of the outside Blood Bowl World.
Since obviosly everybody agreed on the problem with Pro and Armour or Injury rolls, the problem was adressed in the now official Blood Bowl rules by excluding armour and injury rolls from Team Rerolls.
So we actually do not have any reason to argue about the use of pro at all. What i tried to point out, after reading and accepting the knowledgabel and or friendly posts was, that Blood Bowl needs plain English rules since it is played internationally, an no localised version is availiable any more.
While trying to stay friendly, i am sick of the personal accusations made towards me.
Like i told you before started a project that aims at redesigning the Game of Bloodbowl in a way that enables Blood Bowl to be presented to an professional Software Games producing Company. This is critizised completely without anybody really beeing interested, so i dont mind.
If someone was interested to join or discuss the project without flaming or banning it from the verry beginning, i assume they would be able to contact me.
The Game of Blood Bowl is a joke compared to commercially sucessfull Games like Starcraft, Diablo, Ultima Online or Counterstrike. Germany is second to the USA the Biggest market for PC Games and over here only a verry small few of people even remembers Blood Bowl, let alone still plays it.
That is sad because the basic concept of blood bowl, being a strategy game with elements of chance and fun, and the possibility to develop the playing pieces and personally identify with them is amazing, and it is unique.
To me it seem that most people dont WANT to understand what i wanted to discribe and has no experience with online gaming either. So this project which aims at fusioning 2 gaming worlds.
All the tools you talk of are fan projects which, while ambitious and great for fans, would be torn apard in any review of a software Magazine that did not know of Blood Bowl previously or someone who is a fan of the game.
The basic Game Design of Blood Bowl translated to an Online Strategy Game would be able to achieve an success like Starcraft whith 3 Million Copies sold in Korea alone.
Balancing is clear is the single most important thing in Strategy Gaming, and if you think it is perfect in Blood Bowl i can only tell you, no one would play that Game ofer a Period of 5 Years like Starcraft and no one would earn 50.000 $ by winning a Tournament like top Gamers do.
I am convinced that the concept of balancing Blood Bowl i have in mind will work and provide enough spots for tweaking to balance 12 Teams and 66 Matchups of similar Team Rating.
Any real assistance is welcome, when you are not interested, thats ok.
Even if i succeed nobody will be "forced" to buy the game.
Regards.
Based on the 3rd Boxed Rules edition ONLY, Pro was to Mighty, because it allowed armour and injury re rolls.
In an attempt to figure out if that was correct, people in my gaming group came up with what was considered to be the correct translation.
The result was limiting pro to dice rolls where only one die is used.
That was in 1996, not knowing of the outside Blood Bowl World.
Since obviosly everybody agreed on the problem with Pro and Armour or Injury rolls, the problem was adressed in the now official Blood Bowl rules by excluding armour and injury rolls from Team Rerolls.
So we actually do not have any reason to argue about the use of pro at all. What i tried to point out, after reading and accepting the knowledgabel and or friendly posts was, that Blood Bowl needs plain English rules since it is played internationally, an no localised version is availiable any more.
While trying to stay friendly, i am sick of the personal accusations made towards me.
Like i told you before started a project that aims at redesigning the Game of Bloodbowl in a way that enables Blood Bowl to be presented to an professional Software Games producing Company. This is critizised completely without anybody really beeing interested, so i dont mind.
If someone was interested to join or discuss the project without flaming or banning it from the verry beginning, i assume they would be able to contact me.
The Game of Blood Bowl is a joke compared to commercially sucessfull Games like Starcraft, Diablo, Ultima Online or Counterstrike. Germany is second to the USA the Biggest market for PC Games and over here only a verry small few of people even remembers Blood Bowl, let alone still plays it.
That is sad because the basic concept of blood bowl, being a strategy game with elements of chance and fun, and the possibility to develop the playing pieces and personally identify with them is amazing, and it is unique.
To me it seem that most people dont WANT to understand what i wanted to discribe and has no experience with online gaming either. So this project which aims at fusioning 2 gaming worlds.
All the tools you talk of are fan projects which, while ambitious and great for fans, would be torn apard in any review of a software Magazine that did not know of Blood Bowl previously or someone who is a fan of the game.
The basic Game Design of Blood Bowl translated to an Online Strategy Game would be able to achieve an success like Starcraft whith 3 Million Copies sold in Korea alone.
Balancing is clear is the single most important thing in Strategy Gaming, and if you think it is perfect in Blood Bowl i can only tell you, no one would play that Game ofer a Period of 5 Years like Starcraft and no one would earn 50.000 $ by winning a Tournament like top Gamers do.
I am convinced that the concept of balancing Blood Bowl i have in mind will work and provide enough spots for tweaking to balance 12 Teams and 66 Matchups of similar Team Rating.
Any real assistance is welcome, when you are not interested, thats ok.
Even if i succeed nobody will be "forced" to buy the game.
Regards.
Reason: ''
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christer
- Star Player
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You have to realize that Blood Bowl can't really be compared to the games you mention. Blood Bowl is a turn based strategy game, much like chess, backgammon or othello. Starcraft is strategy, but realtime strategy. Diablo and Ultima Online are more geared towards the, again realtime rpg concept. Counterstrike is a FPS, highly realtime and actionpacked. Quite a bit from a pure strategy game.The Game of Blood Bowl is a joke compared to commercially sucessfull Games like Starcraft, Diablo, Ultima Online or Counterstrike.
I think the main problem of bringing blood bowl out to the "masses" boils down to that the same "masses" don't want to play turn-based strategy. There's no real market for it anymore. When did you last see a turn based strategy on the shelves that has been hyped up like the -craft series or other various games in the same genre?
To be able to sell blood bowl successfully, you'd need to remake it into an rts. Also, you would have to be releasing it like a year or two ago. My gut-feeling is that the RTS's are going to go back in popularity in the near future. Also, by redesigning BB into an RTS, you'd need a miracle to keep the blood bowl feeling to the game, as you'd more or less get a fantasy NFL2008 game once you enforce realtime and fancy 3d-graphics to the game.
So, in essence, to make BB commercially viable, you'd need to have a vision of what "The next great thing"(tm) in gaming will be. Also, you'll need to come up with it quick, before other game-studios catch up... Assuming you have all this, you'd still be relying on your vision, which will more or less make or break the game.
And for the record, I'm avoiding the discussion on your house rules, as that's just a matter of taste. Balance is extremely difficult to obtain. An example would be Diablo, where multiple patches have been made available to balance the classes. No matter how much thought you put into a concept, you'll still need extensive play-testing to acheive balance.
And I still think you are wrong in that Blood Bowl is unbalanced. Show me the statistics that would prove me wrong, and we'll discuss them. Until then, I'll just trust my own (say 100-ish, 3rd ed and forward) games and the word of several experienced players all over who claim Blood Bowl is balanced. The 2k1 ruleset addresses a whole range of issues which I, along with my friends, devised various house rules to take care of. But yes, there are still some minor issues to deal with (secret weapons for instance), which makes me look forward to the 2k2 rules review.
-- Christer[/i]
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Piepgrass
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christer
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christer
- Star Player
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Oh.. And I'm very carefully trying to not attack Toby personally. I loathe flaming contests... If my posts are perceived as flaming, I would like to apologize as that is absolutely not my intention. I'm trying to discuss the issue, bringing up what I believe is sane and logical points.
-- Christer
-- Christer
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Piepgrass
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