Discuss Fantasy football-style board games - GW's Blood Bowl, Impact!'s Elfball, Privateer Press' Grind, Heresy's Deathball, etc. THIS IS NOT AN NFL FANTASY FOOTBALL SITE!
While you might be able to find someone to play if you did have 10,000 people playing over the internet (a big IF), your system would not longer be able to work for the group of 6 friends meeting together each week to play because what if I'm the only guy whose team has breached the threshold? Or even if two of us have. Now, I play the same opponent all the time because I can't play anyone else.
A smooth system which naturally restricts TR through death and cashflow would be much preferred to two seperate leagues in that scenario.
A Human Team Could buy one Griff, one Zug, and one Morg.
Isn't that enough? Go home tonight and play a game with the humans having Griff, Zug, Count von Drakenborg, and Morg and the Orcs having 4 star player goblins with weapons, Varag, and Ripper and see how much fun the game is. The offensive power becomes unwieldy because of the unstoppable stars and the power of the strength teams lead to decimated opponents. So the game would seem to degenerate into 2-3 turn scoring all the time and every non-star player will get smashed into stew by the star players. What fun is that?
Just the one Zug, Griff AND Morg?
Have you ever PLAYED Blood Bowl Toby?????
Do you realise how powerful a team with those players, plus the rest of a human roster, would be?
BAAAAAAAAAAAAAD idea.
Reason:''
I know a bear that you don't know. * ICEPELT IS MY HERO. Master bleater. * Not in the clique.
Member of the "3 digit" club.
That formulation was unlucky.
I wanted to say have you read the System completely, and what else bothers you instead of money.
(because the idea with money is: make cash flow possible to the players who want to use Stars, and make it financially impossible to use stars where they are not supposed to be used)
Im not being unfair but you seem to miss the brilliance of the attempt to make both opinions on stars possible.
If you want stars, play a Permier League Team.
Thats the Bottom line, and i think thats exactly the intention of A League of their own, and the guy who came up with that Rules.
But aside from:
1) the extra work for the commish and
2) the fact that premier and other teams would never be able to play each other, effectively limiting my opponent options, and
3) the fact that in a premier league, the entire game devolves into a race to save all your money and get to the TR cut-off point so you can hire stars
Why would I want to play in a premier league in the first place?
A) I lose the fun of developing my own players and roster management early. Once I can hire star players, none of those other players, relatively unskilled compared to the same player on another team with the same team rating (because my team rating is based largely on cash now so players haven't had the time to develop).
B) Games plaeyed between large numbers of star players are not fun games to play. Game strategy and teamwork on the field becomes useless because stars are too powerful.
I had a wood elf Team with 4 Treemen as you could have 4 Stars in ANY Combination as long as the Star designed to play for your team. So I faced a Human Teams with 4 Griffs and Orc Teams with 2 Morgs, A Ghoul Chewer and a chainsaw. Where is the Problem ?
if your Balance is based on gaming without Stars, then that is quite an Eye opener. Balancing the Basic Rosters is not even a challange, sorry. Balancing with Stars and Allies, Secret Weapons, Little Ones and Big Guys is. I am beginning to really loose respect. Simply scratching features in order to balance ? how poor is that ?
I have played a single Wood Elf Team over a series of 150 Games over 3 Years, Human High Elf and Orc Teams to give them a try for about 10-15 Games each. But i sticked with the Woodys for all Tournaments we played.
So while there are some who start a new or Diffrent Race Team every 20 Games, there are others who never change their Team. And your rules offer no long time motivation to do that, no possibility to completely redesign an existing team, which is bad.
And Galak League Commisisoning is not a problem at all, because that would be done by the server software, there would simply be 2 diffrent ladders. you ain't seen nothing yet like you admitted before in terms of online gaming. I feel rather alone here and you seem to lack the wider view on things, beeing focused on what you know only from tabletop gaming.
Finally, since EVERYBODY can buy the same predesigned Starplayers the odds are equal, and you quickly adapt and design strategies to counter those stars. so the MOST important thing are your other 12 regular Players and their skills and developement since the predesinged stars will most likely neutralise each other.
And your rules offer no long time motivation to do that, no possibility to completely redesign an existing team, which is bad.
You can redesign your existing team any time you want the same way any other professional team retools their rosters. Fire your two wardancers because they are no longer cost-effective (their SPPs are keeping your TR inflated and limiting your money to hire other players and they have a bad back and are slower than they used to be so they're just not worth it) and hire two new ones and develop them over again.
I am beginning to really loose respect. Simply scratching features in order to balance ? how poor is that ?
Have you noticed you are the only who thinks so.
And Galak League Commisisoning is not a problem at all, because that would be done by the server software, there would simply be 2 diffrent ladders. you ain't seen nothing yet like you admitted before in terms of online gaming.
The day a server program can commish a Blood Bowl league, I'll agree with you .... however, I'll be darned if I picture how to remove the human commish and I write software for a living and am a commish. So I don't consider a mythical master server commish as a way to justify an idea.
I feel rather alone here and you seem to lack the wider view on things, beeing focused on what you know only from tabletop gaming.
That's because Blood Bowl is a tabletop game.
You refuse to acknowlege where the game has headed and insist when I try to explain that I lack vision .... I've been accused of a lot of things, but lacking vision was never one of them when it comes to BB.
I'm done ... really. I'll make you a deal create your own PBeM league as there is a desperate need for them and set up your own rules for it to test it out. After a year, we'll get feedback from your members how it worked. This is not an unreasonable challenge. I proposed a league where the coaches could choose from over 50 teams 1 1/2 years ago. I was told by many online people that my idea would never work, the league would be completely unbalanced and collapse within months of being started. If I really thought it would work, I should start my own league and prove it. I started the MBBL2, one year ago based on that challenge. The league is now the largest PBeM league in the world (no matter how you analyze it: total # of teams, # of coaches, and # of countries represented) and has a waiting list to get in. So since we've hit an impass, I offer you the same challenge ... start your own league and prove me wrong.
Galak
P.S. Longfang can you post that picture of the head hitting the wall for me since I cannot.
Blood Bowl is a Tabletop Game only, that is the reason why it is not successful and not popular despite of its brilliance.
Online Ladders Exists for Starcraft and Diablo, and i can't imagine a single reason why that should be a problem with Blood Bowl at all.
I give in as well.
I say there has got to be a way to include Stars and balance them in a way that Players can choose to use them or not.
You say stars are imbalanced so take them out of the game.
I say there should be a basic system that provides balancing of team including all features.
You say it is already perfectly balanced as long as you do not allow trades, Stars, and Allies.
I talk about looking at the Game with online Gaming in mind and you don't know what online Gaming actually is.
While you say you listen and want to be objective you don't give in 2 cm from your position that the game is as good as it gets right now.
While Blood Bowl is indeed brilliant the way it is right now, it could still unfold a gigantic potential. And work on that potential would pay off becausse that game would sell, tabletop Blood Bowl obviously didn't, at least not in a way that can be compared to PC Games.
Im done.
If you are interessted i'll email you a major design of 12 Competitive Teams so you can tear it apart. Again.
While you say you listen and want to be objective you don't give in 2 cm from your position that the game is as good as it gets right now.
This quote is wrong for two reasons:
1) At the very beginning of this post, I posted a modified version of your advancing Star Player concept that I would really approve of if it was added to the game of Blood Bowl so I was trying to meet you half way which you fail to recognize.
2) I actually run the pseduo-official web site for documenting all the things that the BBRC needs to review for possible improvement or clarification to the game since I don't think its as good as it could be. I regularly read all the boards and capture key thoughts and ideas that are supported by the Blood Bowl community.
This site will be used as one of the sources for reviewing changes to the game during the October Rules Review this year. Once again you throw an accusation at me without knowing the facts.
Toby, if the members of this board were agreeing with your thoughts and praising your concepts, I'd be adding them to the webpage. The only posts you have received have either been openly negative or have tried to help you understand why where the game is now doesn't match with where you want to go. The majority of the most respected online names in Blood Bowl are frequent members of TalkBB. Get their support and I'll gladly add your thoughts to the list of changes to consider.
Now I refuse to get into shouting matches on TalkBB, but I don't like having misquotes about me on any of the board's threads.
Ok i got that wrong, to me it sounde like "if i absolutely MUST use starplayers then that way"
Sorry my fault.
I wasnt quoting, it was summarising of how your position "came across" to me.
Again sorry.
So maybe if you would assume that there would be 2 Types of Leagues, high and low Team rating, maybe you could reconsider my attempt, and if not, well than not.
What you would need to convince me of is that the larger community would WANT a Premier League with purchasable star players.
I've been actively reading all 3 discussions boards since before BB Mag #1. The majority of players out there HATE Star Players. I'm not making this up. There was a MAJOR push to completely remove them from the game completely. The compromise in the LRB is that they are now freebooted at 1/2 cost for a single game.
So I am extrapolating (since I do that a lot with my job) .... if the current online community of BB hated star players and wanted a system that capped teams around the TR 250 mark would that not also mean that an online community of 10,000 BB players would also desire exactly the same thing once they knew the game.
What I've been trying to explain is that the new money rules and freebooted stars where pushed by the community. These changes were NOT like BB Mag #1 and #2 which were rules changes with little to no fan input. The 2001 Rules Review is at its core written by people who loved the game, knew the game, and knew where they wanted it to go.
So I understand your two tier system, but what I'm trying to explain is that based on what the current BB community has requested, I think you'd sell a lot more copies of the program if you used the directions that the fans have taken Blood Bowl rather than reversing those directions.
After all, the League of Their own rules were only experimental.
Furthermore you have to play quite a lot to reach that high team rating.
So the vast majority of games and players would play and be played without the "Future unreleased yet to be designed LOTO Rules".
So, in my oppinion the two could exist parallel to each other.
I could even imagine a mode of play where you start with 2.000 K gp and Sponsoring and Double winnings as a Premier League Team right away. ("Creating a Premier League Team")
So Galak, would your oppinion change if that "toying arround with stars" would be considered as an experimental expansion set ?
I mean one could give it a try and if playing with "Overpowered" Teams sucks, leave it to sombody else who maybe likes it.
In that respekt think of my statement about Balance. I must correct that Statement. I think, powerfull High End teams were inbalanced in 3rd Edition. (this is solved in LRB by cutting features which i think is not the best possible way to work around the problem).
Can we meet somewhere if you regart this statement as an up to date version of my oppinion on the game, after discussing and learning from you ?
I could even imagine a mode of play where you start with 2.000 K gp and Sponsoring and Double winnings as a Premier League Team right away. ("Creating a Premier League Team")
As a seperate league all its own that started powerful it would be an interesting experiment. My thoughts would be that the players would get bored after a year and return to the rookie rule based, but I would agree that as a seperate league I could be wrong. I mean the BOBBA league continues on and to me that just powergaming at its worst (if you don't know what the BOBBA league is do a google search and look at some of the rosters).
So as a seperate league it would have potential.
However by creating such a seperate league you are deviating from your original mission statement of 100% compatible Blood Bowl as such a league would be considered a house rule league since BB Mag #1 and #2 where never really printed it ...they were just two large typos that GW has since erased and fixed.
Now what my change in attitude. As a house rule league, I think your rules sound wonderful and I encourage you to use them and report back to use how they were received. Why the attitude change, I like Chet/Acerak think that every league entirely has the right to use whatever house rules they desire ... I do in the MBBL2 ... you should be able to as well.
So if you are talking about a house rule league ... go for it. If you are talking about something official that would be agreed to by GW, I still think you are creating rules for a mass audience that has very verbally requested exactly the opposite ... ie the mass audience doesn't what TR 300 teams and purchased stars ... they want rookie players that develop and rules that force a team to have a lot of problems getting past TR 250.
Galak, I reallly agree with you (and not only with you, folks, with some others as well!)
I believe we unfortunately hit the bottom line here once more.
Now, Toby, first of all and once again, if you want to meet some people, not only chat with the help of a computer...
1) Toby, one of the main advantages of house rules is that YOU can use them. If you want to use teams with a TR of 300, why don't you give it a test run and start with a TR of, let's say, 500? Play a couple of games against other teams and see what happens. If you get bored because you can't stop the other one and no one can stop you, you will notice what so many people try to tell you. If you can't find a way of getting enough SPP for your tenth skill, you will play that team unchanged forever (until someone dies, of course). IMO, no change = playing it all over = boring, and it seems I am not the only one thinking so. But don't talk, just do get such an experiment started.
2) If you start with a TR of 100, you may soon get some new ideas (do you know the word TURNOVER?). This is what can be real fun. Two people hoping for a certain result not being unlikely, then revealing the dice, one is smiling and one choosing an object to throw out of the window or against the wall (pick the dice, not your model), cheering and cursing at the same time, nearly winning and loosing it all... you can develop your team, gather ideas for new skills, hope each time for a double...
If you divide the league into the upper and the lower class, where is the motivation? Getting to the upper one by playing hunderd games? It's easier to buy an upper class team from the start, right? So why should I develop a player without doubles if I can have the same one with money (=star player)?
3) miniatures. This is also what BB is about. Paint them. Give them stupid names. Do something special with players on the field and get a reputation for them. A red or blue square with the number 8 on it is not what looks great to others or seems to rule the league, really. Yeah, I know you can have a nice picture for him. How many people will play in that league? And how many will then have the same picture? But how many have such a miniature painted in such a way? Aha, no painting then...
4) BB IS a board game. PLEASE accept that one a bit, will you? The internet may be cool for some games, but I believe a main element for BB will still be the board. By the way, it's nicer to have a drink during a match, talk to someone sitting next to you and discuss certain things than to stare into a monitor, wearing a headset, some ugly kind of trousers you don't want to be seen in and wait for that nicely animated pixel to move. Yes, I know games like starcraft and I do not only play bb with some piece of metal. But once again, do you only like to play via computer? You REALLY are invited to get some "on board" expirience (no ideas left how to spell that one, sorry).
Sputnik i was takling about Blood Bowl to the PC from the verry beginning. I dont care about painting, i dont have the time for that. I want to play a strategy game where the better coach wins.
And a want to play it when happen to have time which is usually weekdays at night. If you have a gaming club and people who share your hobby, thats great. But for the rest, the internet is the way to go.
Dont get me wrong, its not a problem to find a chess club to play in Hamburg... but its not possible to find a blood bowl club in Knoglersfreude, sorry. Thats where the internet is brilliant.
but you seem to miss the brilliance of the attempt to make both opinions on stars possible.
