Crazy (?) League Format Idea.

[plasmoid]

Hi all,
as mentioned elsewhere, I'll be starting a special league this august.
The league will have a pretty low activity level of 2 games per month (per coach), and the coaches are rookies (but not complete newbies).

The first (crazy) idea is to run this as a resurrection style league, albeit with some altered rules for team design (1.200K, 1 skill for each player, 2 skills for 1 player - up to 2 of the skills can be "doubles" skills).

The advantages of playing resurrection style is that no team can be devastated in a single unfortunate match, and that no team can outgrow the others. Also, it should remove any need to "time" your matches right, or avoiding opponents.

Once I'd decided to do the experimental league as resurrection style, and that each team should face eachother twice, the really"crazy" idea popped into my head:
The first time the coaches play against eachother, they'll be using their own teams.
The second time, they'll swap teams!!

This will teach the coaches a lot about the strengths and weaknesses of the different teams. At the same time, it will say a lot about their skill. If a coach A can beat coach B, and then do it again under the exact reversed conditions, then there is a fair chance that coach A is truly the stronger coach.

Too crazy?
Comments are welcome.

[jeffzimm1]

Sounds like your trying to measure coaching skill. I'd go ahead and create a certain amount of standardized teams. These teams would have the exact same skill at the start of the next match regardless of the outcome of any previous matches.

1. The teams would be varied (humans, orcs, elf, dwarves, etc.). A coach must play one game for each race, in other words, create an equal number of teams to coaches.

2. A coach cannot use a team a second time.

If you were to let a coach create a team as his own, and then in the second game force a swap, I believe that in a tight competition a coach would allow his "borrowed" team to be decimated in the hopes of losing one game, but gaining ground in the coming games.

[Piepgrass]

Hi Jeff...

The resurrection-style of playing makes it impossible to decimate the other team before a importent match.

Poul

[plasmoid]

As Piepgrass pointed out:
In resurrection you have the exact same team for each match. No changes. Ever. This is why it is perfect for this format.

Also, by allowing a coach to have 1 team as his own, this will ensure that there will be miniatures for everyone involved. (Because when you're not playing your own team, you're swapping miniatures with your opponent).
Martin

[Deathwing]

I think this is interesting. Would you start with a 'template' roster for each race (players/RR/FF) and allow each coach to choose the skills, or would it be a rigid set of rosters that remain identical?

[plasmoid]

Hi deathwing,
are you asking about my version or jezz's suggestion?

In my version, each coach will create his own personal team, with skill choices and everything, once and for all. Note that no 2 coaches will be allowed to play the same race.

Martin

[jeffzimm1]

Sorry, I never played resurrection style.

As DW pointed out would it be "template" or rigid? A rigid style would probably show a general idea of who is the best on-field coach. Whereas a template set-up would also show which coach has a better understanding of the racial strengths/weaknesses and how to offset them with skills.

[GalakStarscraper]

Almost sounds like Dangerous Dave's RABBL league.

Galak

[Dangerous Dave]

Just posting this.. but Galak beat me to it!.... Anyway:-


If you are looking for ideas for a League where players don't build and play with their own teams, check out the RABBL web-site. Although, this is a PBEM League, if you want to chop and change teams, there may be some bits of interest on the site that you can use - eg we are using a points system to determine the best Coach.


http://www.dn-allen.supanet.com/RABBL.html


Dave

[Piepgrass]

Well i might be able to answer that.

If he plan on running the league like he runs ouer CTR- tournements, it will be like this:

120.K. to buy the team.

Each player start with one skill (in addition to the ones they have as default.)

1 player start with 2 skills in addition to the ones they have as default.)

2 of the chosen skills can be doubles( e.g. traits or anytable)

each coach makes his own team with players, RR, ff and coaching staff.

And thats basicly it.

Please correct me Martin if i am wrong.

Poul

[Deathwing]

Hi deathwing,
are you asking about my version or jezz's suggestion?

In my version, each coach will create his own personal team, with skill choices and everything, once and for all. Note that no 2 coaches will be allowed to play the same race.

Martin

Sorry Martin, yeah, I was refering to your post. Don't see why that wouldn't work and be a lot of fun.

[christer]

I'd sign up for a league like that, but yes, I'd probably suggest what Jeff said. Standardized teams, design them in advance.

I'm guessing creating the schedule would become a virtual nightmare though.

(Warning: Some math skills are required to keep up with the following )

Let's see here..

You have C number of coaches playing.
You have T number of teams in your league.
The number of possible matches will be T*(T-1).
Each coach should play N matches against all other coaches in the league.
This leads to N*(C-1) matches per coach.

Now, to be optimal, you need to make N*(C-1) = T*(T-1), which means all coaches will play every possible combination of teams.

The obvious solution to this equation is N=C=T (there are more solutions, as I will show below).

The number of matches per coach would skyrocket quite quickly:

C=4 => 12 matches per coach.
C=5 => 20 matches per coach.
C=6 => 30 matches per coach.

So, let's assume N=2 and try to find other interesting solutions.
2*(C-1) = T*(T-1)

T=2 => 2*(C-1) = 2 => C=1 ( Slightly boring )
T=3 => 2*(C-1) = 6 => C=4
T=4 => 2*(C-1) = 12 => C=7
T=5 => 2*(C-1) = 20 => C=11

Ok, so we see a pattern here The number of coaches has to be 1+X*3 to be schedulable in a "perfect way". I'm sure this could be proven by induction, but I'm not going to go there

The "sweet spot" looks to be at 7 coaches where you'd have 4 teams and 12 matches per coach. Your league would take 6 months to complete. At 11 coaches, it would take 10 months.

Expanding further. At N=3, you'd get:

T=3 => 3*(C-1) = 6 => C=3
T=4 => 3*(C-1) = 12 => C=5
T=5 => 3*(C-1) = 20 => C=... Well.. 7 and a piece...
T=6 => 3*(C-1) = 30 => C=11

The interesting line here is probably 5 coaches at 12 matches per coach.

N=4 gives:

T=4 => 4*(C-1) = 12 => C=4
T=5 => 4*(C-1) = 20 => C=6

Both of these might be interesting..

Ok, so now this officially qualifies as an overly long post. I'll stop here unless someone wants me to expand... Or point out mistakes..

-- Christer

[Piepgrass]

uhhm
My `ead `urts
Stomp da ´numbacrunchin ´uumie

*sound of charging orchorde*

Sorry i aint much of a mathguy, so it will take A LOT of explanation to bring the message to me.

Poul

[plasmoid]

Hi Christer,
the mind reels

While the suggestion could probably be fun, I think that that very math nightmare points back to my simpler solution
Each caoch has his starting team, and everybody plays everybode twice.

So, in a league with 9 coaches (which were probably looking at), each coach will play 16 games.
Martin

[christer]

I can't really explain the concept in "plain english".. Sorry..

At 9 coaches and two games against every other coach, you can't make a "perfect" schedule like this, so you'd need to make coaches play a subset of all possible games.

For example, you could create 5 teams, generate all possible games between these 5 teams (which would lead to 5*4=20 matches, each team playing twice against the others, ie home and away matches). After that you just randomize the matches among the coaches, more or less as you would during a regilar league.

Oh.. And creating a schedule for a league isn't even close to trivial, so don't even get me started on that one..

-- Christer