New Team Roster: something generally wrong

neoliminal · Post by **neoliminal** » Thu Jun 27, 2002 1:13 am

Maybe I'm confused...

But doesn't your TR stay the EXACT SAME after you freeboot someone?

So how on earth could you make it simplier?!? You can't.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Thu Jun 27, 2002 1:54 am

And isn't it enough of a penalty to drop 90k for Griff who will only play from one game without ALSO adding 9 points of TR to the team for the game.

Galak

Sounds overpenaltizing and overly complex to me.

martynq · Post by **martynq** » Thu Jun 27, 2002 10:43 am

Toby wrote:I dont like Freebooting Starplayers cuz Griff is the Heart of my Team.

It sounds to me like you need a re-think of your tactics. You have ten other players on the pitch who should be developing as you play matches. What do you do when your opponent has a well developed squad and removes Griff from the match early on?

Cheers,
Martyn

[Standard disclaimer: Of course, I'm not the greatest of coaches, but there are plenty around who would easily manage to achieve the above.]

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Thu Jun 27, 2002 12:16 pm

The whole freebooting thing is stupid, theres no reason why one shouldn't be able to include ONE starplayer of every type. The existing Stars must be distributed across the teams so that everyone gets at least one Big Guy and a maximum of 4 Stars.

In third edition you could have 4 Griffs, that was abusive. But griff NEEDS to be on the Team i mean where would Germany be without Oliver Kahn ? @ home !

Star Players are a must.

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Thu Jun 27, 2002 12:24 pm

Toby wrote: Star Players are a must.

Star Players were broken in that they were way overpowered and way undercosted. Any serious Leagues back in 3rd edition days binned them for that reason.
You really want to play a human team with Zug, Griff, Morg and Luthor?
Broken, horrid powergaming that the BB community rejected and moved away from years ago.

martynq · Post by **martynq** » Thu Jun 27, 2002 12:27 pm

Toby wrote:But griff NEEDS to be on the Team i mean where would Germany be without Oliver Kahn ? @ home !

Star Players are a must.

The trouble with this logic is that it leads to the observation that Griff isn't going to play for a low rated team permanently. Oliver Kahn might play for Germany and for Bayern Munich, but he isn't about to turn out for Barnet or Exeter City! (Sorry, I don't know the names of any low division teams in Germany - these are English teams who Kahn would definitely not sign for.)

If you are going to argue that a Star will sign permanently for a team, than you would have to come up with a house rule that says that they will only sign for a team with a sufficiently high TR.

Martyn

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Thu Jun 27, 2002 12:37 pm

Marty: did you read the experimental rules, "a league of their own"?

in short it says that the Appearance fee is designed to make it unattractive to use star players against already inferior teams, and "Leaue of their own" adds A LOT of money, so you can afford to use your stars. It used to say you can make your team "Premier League" when it teaches Team Rating 300, but that number is with LRB1.2 to high.

Deathwing:

By the time you managed to buy 4 High calibre Stars, everybody else in a SCHEDULED League has Stars as Well. More Important: A team with 50+ Matches has at LEAST 5 Players who are WAY more Powerful than ANY Predesigned Starplayer. And IF a certain Star is Over or Underpowered, then Patch the rules and rob them a skill or change them to balance the game better.

Bloodbowl IS imbalanced WHEN you want to play WITH Stars, Allies, Trades. Simply cutting features is not Balancing :O

Norse · Post by **Norse** » Thu Jun 27, 2002 12:54 pm

Ok, my take is quite simple on this..

1) Toby, please calm down man, you're getting pretty heated

2) Star players are to BB what special characters are to 40K and WFB, unbalancing and universally banned BY GW THEMSELVES!! in tournaments. The ability of one player to turn a game on it's head should be at great expense, which is the point of freebooting.. At the end of the day, you will need to build up a good team because your superstar player will not always be available, in fact, hemay even turn up for the opposition if they pay him enough. Money is getting tighter and stars are getting harder to pay, so we all need to build up strong teams instead. I regard this an excellent way of forcing people to plan ahead, and destroys the "No Griff no fair!" argument which you seem intent on following despite overwhelming opposition.

In short Toby, you're entitled to your opinions and you may well be correct at the end of the day, but your arguments are opposed by some of Blood Bowl's greatest advocates and experts and your ranting is doing you few favours either....

Come to Holland and

my friend, then you'll be

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Thu Jun 27, 2002 12:57 pm

Toby wrote:Deathwing:

By the time you managed to buy 4 High calibre Stars, everybody else in a SCHEDULED League has Stars as Well.

You're missing the point. People don't want Stars, it not a question of both sides or all teams having them. They detract from gameplay.

More Important: A team with 50+ Matches has at LEAST 5 Players who are WAY more Powerful than ANY Predesigned Starplayer. And IF a certain Star is Over or Underpowered, then Patch the rules and rob them a skill or change them to balance the game better.

Look at Griff. You need 176+ SPPs to get him there.
1 roll of 10, 1 roll of 11, 1 roll of 12, 3 doubles and 1 normal increase. What's the odds?
The whole 2k1 ruleset moves away from power gaming, back towards basic fundamentals and tactics, and is probably the most widely popular BB ruleset that has ever existed. Why can't you grasp that?

Norse · Post by **Norse** » Thu Jun 27, 2002 1:00 pm

Yeah, what Deathwing said!

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Thu Jun 27, 2002 4:05 pm

Im perfectly calm. Just because you play the game newbie style, thers no reason to get upset.

For the Records:

I played this Game. A lot. We played a 38 Games League with Playoffs and Stuff, including Stars, And Inter-Racial Player Trades.

And I have never seen a Team that had managed to get more than 3 Stars. Because a lot of folks died on the Pitch in 3rd Edition...

For example Griff. Griff is almost useless. Why ? hes a scorer, and he is peaked. Its no use to let griff score, you waste Experience (SPPs).

So what is the guy good for ? He's an Addition to an already Powerful Team, and he can replace a High Level Player that died so that buys you the time to give the new guy a couple of extra MVP's to get the skills he needs to simply Survive. And, Griff, is COOL. The man is a STAR.

Stars are a sharp Balancing Knife. For Example Treemen. Wood Elfes should be allowed 4 of them. Why not ? one costs 180 K, and no Wood Elf Team will EVER be able to afford 720 K while having to constantly replace their catchers @ 90 K and Wardancers @ 120 K. Treemen give the Woods at least SOME toughness, althoug when you have a Tree, your opponent will do everything to try to KILL him.

Instead of scratching stars, they should be REDESIGNED, so that the availiability of stars fits into the concept and maybe some have to be changed a little.

Ok, i work on my own team rules, and they are really BALANCED and they are WAY cooler than this.

Starplayers are rebuilt from their respective basic players and start with the minimum needed SPP. So they are NOT peaked.
Stars charge an Appearance Fee, according to their Level: a Legend like Griff charges 70 K per Game. In order to use a Star you have to sign him up, in Griffs case, thats 180 K + 70K per match.
There are Player Stars like Jordell and Griff or Zug, and Big One Stars, and Little One Stars as well. Strength Teams are Allowed 2 Big Guys, Agility Teams just one. High Elf and Amazon get the Unicorn for Example.
Humans get Morg and or Thrud. A Starplayer takes up a Position Slot, so griff costs you a Blitzer Slot, and Thrud costs you one of 2 Bigguy Slots.
Every Star is unique, there is only ONE Griff per Team.

So in my system the basic thing from the design Perspective is, you can Trade Money to Star Player Points (to a certain degree).

the Human Team could sign up: Thrud, Morg, Griff, Zug.
to let all play in a single match you have to pay 50K for Morg, 50K for Thrud, 70K for Griff, and 40K for Zug, thats a Total of 210 K Appearance Fee PER GAME.

I mean thats a Super High end Team with a big fat sponsoring deal, and pretty much the ceiling of team developement.

neoliminal · Post by **neoliminal** » Thu Jun 27, 2002 4:12 pm

Toby wrote:Im perfectly calm. Just because you play the game newbie style, thers no reason to get upset.

You're in the minority here Toby. Most people like the rules as they stand. If you want stars on your rosters, then add them. This isn't a dictatorship, so local leagues are free to do whatever they want.

You're ideas would work fine, for a league that wanted to have stars as a focus.

In fact, I'd like you to write up all the rules you've been championing and submit them to the Blood Bowl Journal. Maybe call it "Star Leagues".

John -

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Thu Jun 27, 2002 4:28 pm

Neo, i was very enthusiastic about that when LRB was released. Right now i have 8 of 12 Team Rosters completed and 4 almost ready. The Charts are desinged to be compatible with LRB Rules and i have an Expansion set in mind, that adds the Chapter "Creating a Premier League Team".

With all that i try to stick as close to LRB as possible, but i find some ideas from 4th Edition and League of their own interessting.

Galaks Website is a great resource as well, but i completely dislike the idea of adding more Teams than the Official 12. Thats in balancing just blowing the thing up with more of the same flavor. I aim at having 12 very unique Teams and hopefully every matchup balanced.

May I email you the Rosters tonight ? I appreciate your attitude, you seem to do a lot of toying around with blood bowl rules yourself. I mean, eventually we can throw together elements like your stadium rules and my starplayer system and send in both ^^

Post by **Thadrin** » Thu Jun 27, 2002 7:50 pm

Toby - You're being extrordinarily arrogant. You have one opinion. Most everyone else who's replied disagrees. Accept that.
You like Stars. Fine. House rule them in. The rest of us will continue to see them as a relic that we are glad to be close to rid of, and the official rules should reflect that.

Anyway....I always thought the concept of the Star players should be the real greats earning a little extra cash by playing for other teams in between Reavers/All Stars/whichever games.

This thread is declining rapidly into the Toby against the world flame war situation we had before....

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Thu Jun 27, 2002 9:57 pm

OK Stars are inbalanced, you cut them off completely. I try to balance them. If you call that arrogant and cutting features is smart to you - fine.
I would only like to kindly remember you that everybody QUIT Blood Bowl a long time ago, and the 20 Guys i played with loved the stars.
If you think what the majority thinks is just fine, that would be the ruin of society as a whole.

The current Starplayer System can only be a temporary measure to avoid the imbalances stars add the way they are now.

Stars need to be redesinged, or else Blood Bowl is cut seriosly and looses a lot of its excitement.