New Team Roster: something generally wrong

High & Mighty · Post by **High & Mighty** » Thu Jun 27, 2002 10:24 pm

Honest question Toby, but you said before in your league that by the time people were adding stars to the teams, other teams already had stars as well and each roster already had four or five guys better than the stars themselves.

If that was the case, what makes the stars so exciting, in your opinion. If the skill development were sped up in bloodbowl so teams could develop their own players faster (say skill rolls at 5, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, etc.) would that make the game more exciting for you? Or is it something else about the stars entirely?

Just curious what it is about stars that you really like. Maybe it's just a difference of opinion of what is exciting in the end. There probably is a place for a league designed around stars, but perhaps that kind of league offers a different kind of excitement, but not a relatively better one?

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Fri Jun 28, 2002 12:23 am

To me the Appeal is quite simple.
You start with your 100K, just enougth money to buy Fan Factor 9, 2 Wardancers, a Thrower, a Catcher and 7 Linemen. You hope and pray not to loose a player before you can afford the first big improvement: a Medic !
Owning one of the Mighty Treemen is a ambitious goal, let alone the dream of ever owning 4 of them ! thats a reason to play and try to make money. You dream of the "Perfect" setup and the "perfect skills" you want to give your players and you want to progress to make your team that kind of powerhouse...

Its not about gaining a lot skills fast. Its about the possibilities, and its about playing only ONE team over a Season or several Seasons even.

The only drawback is that Powerhouse vs Newbie Team doesnt work @ all.
But why should that ? why should Austria be competitive for Brazil in Football ?

So i think its a good idea to make certain features unavailiable until a certain Team Rating is reached. The Starplayers are Hero Characters that really add "color" to the whole thing.

DaFrenchCoach · Post by **DaFrenchCoach** » Fri Jun 28, 2002 3:11 am

Completely agree with Thadrin... THe most parts of the topic when toby wrote in there had a TBB Members who asked from stopping replying, , cause he's really arrogant, and I don't think this is a problem of language barrier...

Right now i have 8 of 12 Team Rosters completed and 4 almost ready. The Charts are desinged to be compatible with LRB Rules and i have an Expansion set in mind, that adds the Chapter "Creating a Premier League Team".

Galaks Website is a great resource as well, but i completely dislike the idea of adding more Teams than the Official 12. Thats in balancing just blowing the thing up with more of the same flavor. I aim at having 12 very unique Teams and hopefully every matchup balanced.

Of course, Amazons, Norsemen, and Lizardment are peanuts... Let throw away Khemri too !

About your appearence fee system, it really sounds beardie... Something like the monty haul system, or laissez faire system in 4th Gold Edition.

And please, stop talking about your xxx games... I played since 1990, I ran more than 500 games in the last 12 years, and I never consider it shoud allow me to be soooooooooooo arrogant than you !

Post by **Thadrin** » Fri Jun 28, 2002 6:19 am

Toby wrote: If you think what the majority thinks is just fine, that would be the ruin of society as a whole.

You do have DEMOCRACY in Germany don't you?

DW, Galak, Voyagers - I think this debate has gone as far as it can. I think a padlock is warranted.

Norse · Post by **Norse** » Fri Jun 28, 2002 7:30 am

Well, as it's not padlocked, I'll post again..

Toby, I understand your frustration. Many a time have I come to this forum with improvement ideas and suggestions which have been, to be polite, laughed at or immediately dismissed.

I thought my ideas were good, because, primarily, I'm intersted in 'fluff' more than game balance. Many a time I've got all hot and bothered because no-one took my points seriously, or worse still, proved them to be totally crap ideas in the first place

(thanx Galak, you keep my feet on the ground..

)

What I began to realise is that TalkBB is not a forum of 12 year olds who have played twice and don't know what they are talking about. It is actually the best BB place in town to chat with genuine experts (Galak has forgotten more about BB that I will ever know) and even people on the Rules Committee (Neo, Andy, Acerak and possibly others who hide their true identity..

)..

When faced with that kind of audience, you have to appreciate that their answers are final, whether you like them or not. The real beauty of all GW games is that, if you wish, you can tailor them to your nees and set up a myriad of house rulez in your own league. In A'dam, we use 2K1 rules, but we still award extra MVPs (to encourage new teams) and allow allies because it was difficult to cross all the teams over as they were. Myself and Lucy would love to go totally 2K1, but we are in the minority, so we focus our time on killing other people's allies instead..

If you are calm, then I would hate to see you angry. Relax, accept that you won't win this one, but you can still play as you want to, and wait for the WC final on Sunday...

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Fri Jun 28, 2002 8:10 am

Ah, Norse, i stopped to take this Place seriously.

I mean, Blood Bowl used to be cool, then it started to disapear from stores and people quit playing it.

The Fellows here are the Last Brigade, claiming what they, the chosen few like is the Ultimate thing...

Well Blood Bowls BACK. Its a revival and its the perfect Moment to start to think about the Game in any way. Stadium Rules, Star Players, Allies, Player Trades, Secret Weapons, Magic Items.

I pointed out many times that in my oppinion if the game has any future then if it becomes a PC game with online play. I talked to a lot of Folks on Broodwar.de and they share my opinion. They also know BloodBowl from years ago and they share my "if we only had the Internet back in the days we used to play BloodBowl" attitude.

And where I come from only newbies play without Starplayers

Well, regarding the WC... IM SCARED ^^ that Brasilian Team is damn good. I mean is 1 Kahn enought ? i hope it stays 0:0 for some time because an early Brasilian Goal would be decisive, i think

Norse · Post by **Norse** » Fri Jun 28, 2002 8:29 am

Different strokes for different folks..

Where I come from, only newbies take star players because they lack the imagination or foresight to develop their own, it's just a question of perspective.

I used to work for GW, and during that time every child I knew had a Zug, or a Morg, or a Varag. All the adults that played turned up with mostly linemen because they liked the challenge ( and any adult with a star player was laughed at so badly they quickly changed..)

It was the same with 40K. Every sad kid with no knowledge of the game bought Abaddon the Despoiler, adults bought troops and Rhinos....

Please remember that under 2K1 it is quite possible to have Big Guys (like the Treeman) as allies, but they are not stars (treemen cost 120/130K, not 180K)..

Maybe it's a cultural thing. I mean no disrespect here, but every German I've known has admired individual power and strength more than team-work and a willingness to admit weaknesses... no offence intended...

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Fri Jun 28, 2002 9:22 am

Sounds like the Guys you played with didn't know how to use them.

(I refer to the 3rd Boxed Edition now)

Its not wise to use Starplayers on a rookie Team. I the SPP range from 0-30 the guys level up quite fast. So SPPs given to Stars hurt the Speed of your Team Developement more than they do when almost everybody else on the Team has 3 Star Player Rolls as well.

Stars have, other than regular players who level up, certain skills and stats you can count on for sure. So Stars can be used to compensate a certain weakness your team has from the beginning, and that you know that will become a problem as soon as the other teams get in shape. When playing Wood Elf, you can rely on the possibility to include up to 4 Treemen in your line of scrimmage. That is POSSIBLE but not REALISTIC, and hard to get there.

Star Players like Jordell Freshbreeze or Griff Oberwald are Scorers. They are usefull as All-Rounders. Griff needs to step in when catchers die on the pitch. They buy you some Time to level up a rookie catcher so he can compete on the level the rest of your team has.

Stars are a Tactical Means, an addition, they give you Options.

Rookie Team with 4 Stars will not stand a Chance against a Team where Everybody has at least 2 Starplayer Rolls.

The Problem with stars was, not every team was desinged with the same love for detail. Orcs have a ton of options, High Elfs have 4 Dragon Princess who are not exactly the most powerful players in the game, same goes for Dark Elfs.

I say every Team should be desinged with balance of all Options in mind, but all GW did was adding more and more raw teams like the Lizardmen who are a Joke compared to the Details on an Orc Team. This is because the Company sells Miniatures, not, the GAME.

There is no need for similar Teams. Existing features must be distributed across the teams. For Example Big Guys and Secret Weapons.
And there should be a trade system. My strength 4 Catcher micht absolutely not fit in my team strat, maybe you desperately need such a guy. Here we go, lets TRADE.

Ah, i give up.

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Fri Jun 28, 2002 9:37 am

Toby wrote: I mean, Blood Bowl used to be cool, then it started to disapear from stores and people quit playing it.

The Fellows here are the Last Brigade, claiming what they, the chosen few like is the Ultimate thing...

Well Blood Bowls BACK. Its a revival....

Toby, take a look at this month's WD Dwarf and the Resurrection report which begins "Blood Bowl is one of the most enduringly popular games in the specialist ames range and has maintained a dedicated following over it's 15 year history despite being periodically out of print." While you're at it, have you seen the Res. video?

I pointed out many times that in my oppinion if the game has any future then if it becomes a PC game with online play. I talked to a lot of Folks on Broodwar.de and they share my opinion. They also know BloodBowl from years ago and they share my "if we only had the Internet back in the days we used to play BloodBowl" attitude.

And I pointed out in reply that GW is a tabletop gaming and hobby company. People like to collect and play with minatures that are cool physical objects rather than a collection of pixels. How did GW expand from a two-bit operation in the UK to the vastly successful world-wide company it is today if this wasn't the case?
Games Workshop, the world of hobby gaming.
Of course PC enthusiasts will think that online PC play is the way forward.
Table top gamers think otherwise, and I think that the sales volumes of minatures supports that. Did you know there are 114 GW stores in the UK alone? What the hell are all these places selling? Hot Dogs? Computer games? Minatures. Millions of them worldwide. You're perfectly entitled to your "oppinion if the game has any future then if it becomes a PC game with online play", but please stop endlessly repeating it.
Going around in circles is becoming tiresome.

McDeth · Post by **McDeth** » Fri Jun 28, 2002 9:50 am

Toby, Almost everyone on this Board agrees thats Star players are not balanced. Heck when only 3 or 4 of them were ever wothwhile taking. A Human team with a Griff against an Elf team with a Prince Moron, was such a mismatch it was laughable. unfortunately if you've got any Star player in your team you tend to use him exclusively. in fact to the point of being boring. Oh look i'll give the ball to Griff and let him score again.

Yawn

Where the heck is the skill in doing that.

Likewise almost everyone on this aboard agrees that Star Players are unwelcome in the game as permanent additions to a roster. In fact i wouldn't even freeboot them, i'd much prefer to develop my own.

The arguement that Stars should be used to compensate for a certain weakness in your team is exactly the reason why Star players have no place in a Blood Bowl Roster.

Thats like saying i'll play with a team with.
2 Mummies
2 vampires
4 Gutter Runners
1 Griff
1 Morg
2 Dragon Warriors
4 Human Blitzers

that should just about iron out any weaknesses in my team

Get Real!!!!

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Fri Jun 28, 2002 9:59 am

A. I said Blod Bowl is inbalanced from the very Beginning

B. Starplayers are ESPECIALLY imbalanced, that also i said from the very Beginning.

C. instead of ruling stars out, BALANCE them.

do i write chineses or what ?

McDeth · Post by **McDeth** » Fri Jun 28, 2002 10:07 am

So your saying every team should have access to a Star Player of griff like proportions.

Doesn't that imbalance the rest of the players , making them completely redundant.

No your talking Double Dutch

Norse · Post by **Norse** » Fri Jun 28, 2002 10:09 am

OK, bollox to it, I'm with Thadrin, lock the thread please..

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Fri Jun 28, 2002 9:32 pm

Norse wrote: I thought my ideas were good, because, primarily, I'm intersted in 'fluff' more than game balance. Many a time I've got all hot and bothered because no-one took my points seriously, or worse still, proved them to be totally crap ideas in the first place (thanx Galak, you keep my feet on the ground.. )

I live to serve.

It is actually the best BB place in town to chat with genuine experts (Galak has forgotten more about BB that I will ever know)

... thanks Norse ... nothing you could not absorb with a lot of deadtime while the computer processes the latest batch of data while you work from home.

Oh and before I forget ... this is a simple agreement in a way to Toby. The 76 rosters allowed in the MBBL2 are not for everyone I agree with this wholeheartedly ... if its not your taste I won't expect your application to join, its more of a try something different league. However, I would fight you until I died from lack of oxygen that the teams are not balanced ... anymore its a rare team in the MBBL2 that you can find more than a very small handful of supporters of the "that team is unbalanced" set. I run the MBBL which uses the official GW teams so that players not liking the extras have an alternative.

Galak

Galak

Galak

DaFrenchCoach · Post by **DaFrenchCoach** » Sat Jun 29, 2002 6:18 am

As said before, I'm with Thadrin and Norse. please, should it be possible to close it ? Toby didn't answered to remarks, he didn't move from his point of view... Our opinions are so different, and more important, our ways for talking about are sooo diferent that is the solution to my mind.

Toby: many thanks in advance to keep us informed of your great project. If you need applauses for your intelligence, your sense of game, ... you got it.