Some "new" Ideas

[Thadrin]

Any ally rules which involve players who aren't 1)linemen or 2)Big guys should be burnt, stomped into dust and scattered to the four winds. At best.
Just my opinion of course...

[Sputnik]

but chaos could go for a dark elf lineman...

and the elves for a human one???

Although I like the idea a bit. But: if only lineman, why should I take one? So it's pretty close to no allies..


Sputnik

[GalakStarscraper]

Hey Thradin,

I've had ally rules in my league for a while now and haven't found them to be that bad at all. We use the one non-lineman position per a team for an ally ... no re-rolls for the ally ... and all teams with AG 4 players are not allowed as allies for teams with ST 4 players (which solved a LOT of the ally problems).

Galak

[McDeth]

Hey Thradin,

I've had ally rules in my league for a while now and haven't found them to be that bad at all. We use the one non-lineman position per a team for an ally ... no re-rolls for the ally ... and all teams with AG 4 players are not allowed as allies for teams with ST 4 players (which solved a LOT of the ally problems).

Galak

Agreed . I took an Orc thrower as an ally for my Chaos Dwarf team to give them a passing play possibility and ball carrier, only to see him throw a 1 every time he went for it. As result in this particular game he was more of a handicap than a bonus

[mrinprophet]

I agree with Thads with regard to your first point, only the High Elf team really bothers me. The others add a bit of flavor.
For allies, while I believe that good ally rules could be constructed (see Galak's post), I don't like allies. No way, shape, or form. Nope. Nada. I like the rosters just as they are. Play your stengths, cover your weaknesses.

Just a personal thing.

[Thadrin]

I see position allies as nothing but a path on weaknesses. Lets not forget the farce of the Gutter Runner on the Khemri team.
Allowing one position ally allows a Dark Elf or Skaven thrower on a Chaos team. It allows an Elf catcher on a Human team and so on.

For your league it works Galak, but your league isn't full of munchkins who'll bring cheesy beard teams to official tournaments because the rules say they can.

[DaFrenchCoach]

About names, personally, I really don't care. To be true, I like the Warhammer world names, due to the fact it gives to the game a little bit more variety... So why trying to make something like 2nd edition ? I don't want especially to be the devil's advocate on this case, but what about elves ? If we "cut" links between warhammer and blood bowl, how would you explain the 2 different elves teams ? And what about this nice Khemri (not very fair )? After all, they are undead, blockers, linemen... a little bit sad. And if I see an interest (yep, another fan !!!) of the different colours bases (I would paint them not entirely, just a little triangle ... it will be helpful, by moving played players, too), I'm not sure that there is a real interest... Easier way to choose ally ? Something more in sport spirit ? I would be very curious to know, with the actual game mechanics, to which sport blood bowl is now referring... Football ? Rugby ? A lot of different positions players ...

Galak: I like your suggestions about allies... Is this on www.midgardbb.com ?

[GalakStarscraper]

MBBL2 Ally rules:

http://www.midgardbb.com/MixedRace.html

[Relborn]

Well nice to get so many thoughts from you. Thadrin I have had the sam Idea like you with the six different positions. So every player would have a race and a position definition. An undead team would be like this:

Mummy Blocker, Zombi Lineman, Skeleton Lineman, Wight Blitzer and Ghoul Runner

Of course the stats and everything else wouldn't be changed because of this !

Okay my idea to change the names was not only based on pushing the matter in a sports-like flavor but for balancing the whole ally matter.
When every Player has in addition a position (like the 6 Runner, Blitzer, Catcher, Thrower, Blocker and Lineman) there could be a posibly a rule to allow only allies for this positions. So ie a Chaos Team could change one of their Chaos Blockers for one ally Chaos Dwarf player but an Dark Elf Thrower or Catcher would not be allowed as the Chaos Team hasn't this position at all. An Dark Elf Lineman would still be possible on the other hand.

Combined with some dislike and animosity rules, where players from different races might refuse to hand off, pass or lending assists in a block to another player would be a further balancing factor.[/b]

[Relborn]

Galak: No offense but I read your ally rulke on the Bloodbowl Page mentioned by you (I like this page) and have to admit that I do not like
theese ally rule very much because of balancing sake.

I still believe it would be a to great advantage if an Chaos or Undead Team for example could simply add one Dark Elf Thrower. This way an Team with strong hitting Power would be able to add an large portion of passing power without any costs. This way ally teams would be superior to "pure" race teams instead of beeing on the same power scale.

[McDeth]

Combined with some dislike and animosity rules, where players from different races might refuse to hand off, pass or lending assists in a block to another player would be a further balancing factor.[/b]

If dislike and animosity are ruled in re allies then it would almost defeat of picking an ally for the roster with those negatives imposed. Imagine taking on a Dark Elf thrower who won't pass to anyone????

Personally i like the no re-roll option, and maybe some form of limited progression. No SP roll at 16 or something like that.

I pray that the rules when they come are balanced to the extent that they don't break the mechanics of the game, but from experience if the rules allow it then someone will always try to max out on positional allies.
Heck, who wouldn't if you want to win, but i do worry that the dreaded ally controversy will spoil the game.

[Toby]

The Player Positions need altering indeed.

I was toying around with that recently as well, and came to the following conclusion.

Team can Ally Players that play a Position that is availiable on their Team.
Each Race has a maxium of 3 Allied races.

For example a High Elf LINEMAN can play for a Human Team. But there is no way for a Phoenix Warrior to Play on a Human Team.

With balancing of the Ally Rules and Combinations in Mind, it would make sense to use a couple of "new" Positions like "Runner" "Kicker" "Blocker".

I agree with Galak, that this should not at all result in having all Team rosters look the same. A Mummy is a Undead Special Player Position. Undead are excluded from my ally rules btw, just like Chaos.

I mean what living creature would want to play for Deamons or Undead ?

[Relborn]

McDeath :

If dislike and animosity are ruled in re allies then it would almost defeat of picking an ally for the roster with those negatives imposed. Imagine taking on a Dark Elf thrower who won't pass to anyone????

How could you come to such a solution ? As far as I can remember I haven't mentioned my mechanics concerning dislike and animosity. As far as I can say, that the 2nd Edition had such rules and they worked just fine.

The teams as they are right now are all balanced on the stats an positions they offer. If you just allow to take allys freely than you would ruin the game IMHO. Further IMO a Team based on ONE list should naturally be better than a mixed team (As is mentioned in the BB Books by the fact that the most successful teams are pure-race Teams)

Why would you restrict for example an Undead team by having no Throwers in their team, when they can come by this problem by simple add an ally of another race of this position.

Toby: In my opinion your example will not work as long as the old definitions for the players stand. An Phoenix warrior isn't anything else than an High Elf Thrower and should if you stay by your rule invention be a possible ally for an human team. Now, no sane person would choose an human thrower over an elven thrower when he has the money to make this decision. But when you can't take it for granted that this arrogant elf passes the ball to your receiver than I think that's the base to go for.

And what stands against defining Mummies as Mummy Blockers ? Sure the decission wether undead and deamons should ally with mortal races has still to be made but for the other races it's a fine solution.

[Toby]

Rel:

Regarding the Mummies: while i would like to see more "Positions by Definition" like Phoenix Warrior = Thrower, i think some Races and Players should be unique. There should never be a Wood Elf Wardancer on an other Races Team. Mummie Blocker sounds not bad btw

On the Human Thrower on an High Elf Team:
Despite the Fact that Sure Hands is a Diffrence;
I think of Player TRADES as well. So a Level 7 Human thrower would be a verry verry Powerful adition to ANY High Elf Team. My Idea behind Ally rules is to make the Basic units not very Atractive, but the Posibility of a Level 3 High Elf Lineman on a Human Team is cool.
That way Coaches could Trade their (wrongly?) Skilled Players instead of retiering them. That Skill combo could fit into someone elses Game Plan very well, so here you go sell the guy.

[Relborn]

Toby:

You definately make a point when bringing in the level of a player. But basically I think the ally rules should work without concerning the level of a player.

I admit that my rule is not thought out totally, but that's the reason we are talking here. If we could for a moment agree on 6 Positions where we fit in all possible players (Blocker,Blitzer,Thrower,Catcher,Runner and Lineman ... 7 when adding Kicker) and when we take your example and say a Woodelf Wardancer is a Blitzer than a Huan Team could exchange one of their Blitzers for this new nice Woodelf.

Quite okay BUT really unbalancing as the AG4 of an Elf makes him very appealing for another AG3 Team.

This is where some balance is needed and my thought was that a Dislike/Animosity rule would be very fitting. Having to roll a 2+ on a handoff from/to the ally player every handoff or pass or blockassist from/to him would seem very appropriate to me,

and would be a good reason why Mixed teams had done so badly in the past (combined with the fact that you can't use your Re-Rolls on them)

I like it to have the option of an Ally in my Bloodbowlteams, but there should be rules that prevent that you team becomes better just because you take an ally (The opposite should be true, because allies allow you to break out of your normal race chart)