Random Physical Traits (Mutations)

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Thu Jul 18, 2002 4:31 pm

wesleytj wrote: Tell me what you think.

Personally i was glad to see the back of cards, but this should be a whole different thread.

Getting back, are Skaven dominating League play?
If they're not, then it ain't broke....

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Thu Jul 18, 2002 4:52 pm

Deathwing wrote: Personally i was glad to see the back of cards, but this should be a whole different thread.

The back? Does that mean you were glad to see them go, or glad I brought them back (theoretically?)

Deathwing wrote:Getting back, are Skaven dominating League play?
If they're not, then it ain't broke....

Well that's not really true. Wood elves do it too, and our league for example hasn't been going on long enough for either to have a 1-turn scorer. However I think 2 things are obvious a priori:

1. players who can score in one turn were a major complaint before. Nobody likes it when one guy with a gimmick skill combo completely unbalances the game. A guy who can score is one turn is such a player.

2. there WERE ways to stop a 1-turn scorer before (cards/wizzes) Those have been taken away altogether, or severely limited in the case of wizards. so 1 turn scorers definitely have the potential to become even MORE broken than they were before. And people were complaining about them then (I think unfairly, but now they might have a point)

Now, afaic, making mutations random is NOT the answer. It's a doubles roll to get them, the player should be rewarded with something useful, which THEY pick.

So I suggest bringing back the cards in a limited capacity, since I agree with most here (I think) in asserting that they were not the answer for handicapping. 1 card per side. I will start another thread for that if you'd like, but the point is mainly about the 1-turn scorer. The cards was just an idea for a possible fix.

Sputnik · Post by **Sputnik** » Thu Jul 18, 2002 5:26 pm

I think cards used that way won't fix the problem but bring in another element I don't like...namely to get one sure turnover for free. Hire a wizard, o.k., if you have the money...

And I don't think skaven or wood elves really rule the leagues...

Well, then you will have to limit the MA to a max. of 9, for example. Pick a skill instead a MA increase or something like that.

Maybe make a houle rule of this!

Sputnik

Acerak · Post by **Acerak** » Thu Jul 18, 2002 6:38 pm

EVERY TEAM must have the POSSIBILITY to score in one Turn.

Would every team need access to the same skill set? Or to physical abilities? Or are some inequalities ok? I think you've confused "equal" with "balanced," Toby. I assure you, they are not the same.

Other points:

* The "balance" lies in the difficulty of creating such a player, and the fact that Pass Block and a good defense will generally kill the scoring attempt.

* Cards are not coming back officially. The BBRC discussed this to death back in October.

Thanks.

-Chet

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Thu Jul 18, 2002 7:20 pm

Its fantasy football, after all.

And EVERY team must have the POSSIBILITY to score with only one turn to go.

I dont know if thats clear

just imagine a football game.

christer · Post by **christer** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 7:25 am

And EVERY team MUST have the possibility to score with only one turn to go

Actually, I would much rather see that NO team could score in one turn. However, I'm not entirely sure the one-turners are tilting the balance all that much...

-- Christer

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 7:38 am

Yes, Christer, its like (i think) Neo said before, either all teams or no team.

Again i think it would be okay if it happened extremeley seldom, and when it happens then as a "buzzer beater" at the end of the game....

Pantera · Post by **Pantera** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 7:47 am

Toby wrote:We are talking about a strategy board game with chance elements where the coach with the best tactics should be able to win the game.

Watching a one turn scorer roll his required die rolls is like watching snooker where there is no oportunity to actively participate in the game during the opponents turn.

Blood Bowl's theme is fantasy american football, not fantasy snooker

I was just trying to make a comparison with real life fotball which I think its valid. And sometimes its not the best coach who wins, its the team with the best players. Like a really good coach playing a TR100 vs a normal coach with TR 200. It would be much harder for him to win then.

Anyway, I think random mutations is bad, even if its more like the history of Chaos in the Warhammer world (I'm not that into it). Random = player with more luck gets really good mutations, and I don't think the game needs more luck factor.

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 7:49 am

I agree on the luck factor. I never played Skaven or Chaos so i have no opinion on the importance of mutations. Random just SOUNDS cool.

Pantera · Post by **Pantera** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 7:52 am

neoliminal wrote:What do people mean by "...it's part of the game."

This is not the first time I've this phrase used to defend One Turn Scorers, but I can't for the life of me understand what's meant by it. It doesn't mean that the game was designed to have something in it... because Jervis tried to keep One Turn Scorers off the pitch from the start.

So please explain what you mean by this.

So Jervis tried to keep One Turn Scorers off the pitch. Lets see, when did the game come out? And hasn't there been a 4th and RR2001 edition without anything pointing to Jervis trying to change it?

Pantera · Post by **Pantera** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 7:57 am

Toby wrote:I agree on the luck factor. I never played Skaven or Chaos so i have no opinion on the importance of mutations. Random just SOUNDS cool.

Well, I do play Skaven often, so thats why I'm defending their 1 turn scorers and pick you own mutation

I must say that it was really long since I had a 1 turn scorer, my luck hasn't been with me on the double rolls for my Gutter Runners.

If it would be fixed, I would like the VLL mutation to go or change. That fixes it, as you would have to get +MV instead which is lower odds (and the same as for Wood Elves).

GenoNBBL · Post by **GenoNBBL** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 8:07 am

Ahh, so now it comes out. You've never actually played with a Chaos or Skaven team and therefore don't understand the importance on Physical Mutations on players. Every Chaos and Skaven coach worth his salt will pray for a double on their skill rolls, as mutations open up countless possibilities. However, random mutations can screw things up.

Ok I've had 3 mutations over nearly 20 games. I've got over 300 SPP's for my team now and I've only rolled 3 doubles. They have been as follows:

1) Beastmen: with no skills - I decide to give him Claw.
2) Beastmen: with Block - I decide to give him Extra Arms and build a reciever.
3) Beastmen: with Sure Hands and +1MA - I decide to give him Very Long Legs.

For player 1 a random mutation wouldn't have hurt me as he didn't have a set of skills built to him yet anyway. Player 2 had block, but had scored 5 TD's this season and I wanted to mould him into a Catcher, so a random could have affected me here, but not to the point where the player would be useless.
Player 3 on the other hand is a back field ball reciever/front line deep blitzer. He's got +1MA and if I'd rolled something like 'Spikes' or 'Prehensile Tail' I would feel that the skill would be useless on that player, where as VLL compliments his current skill set already.

If you want to impose random mutations then you're going to piss off a lot of coaches that spend a lot of time mapping out and planning their players progression. It's hard enough to roll a double to get a mutation in the first place, why then introduce a second roll and make it even harder?

Would you put traits into a random table? It's not befitting the theme here but it's the same principle.

Basically, by putting random mutations in you take away a coaches ability to build his team his way.

Am i the only one a bit peeved at this idea?

GenoNBBL · Post by **GenoNBBL** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 8:10 am

If it would be fixed, I would like the VLL mutation to go or change. That fixes it, as you would have to get +MV instead which is lower odds (and the same as for Wood Elves).

I have to say I quite agree. If by making the random table you are aiming to take away the ability to create 1 turn scorers then alter/delete the VLL mutation, don't screw the whole thing up by making all of them random.

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 8:25 am

Just for clarification:

Someone raised the "random mutation" idea; So i decided to post a possible D6 roll System;

During this topic, we came about one turn scorers... seperate topic ok ?

Ok regarding random mutations:
I really dont see the absolute NEED for them on a skaven team. Chaos, i don't know. But i absolutely understand your point.

One turn scoring:
I would like to see that switched from the PLAYER to the PLAY. Understood ?
Not a guy with a Mutation or MA+1 that scores all the time, but a play, like throw team mate that works like once every season...

GenoNBBL · Post by **GenoNBBL** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 8:45 am

Toby - That's fine, I just wanted to air my view on what could happen if the RMT was intoduced.

One turn scorers are another topic entirley, fair enough.

You understand what I mean about taking away a coaches ability to develop his players though? I see that this came from another thread and it's not entirley your idea, (or fault that I jumped down your throat about it) but a little note at the top saying 'continued from blah blah thread' would have been good. I don't read all the threads round here, as I'm sure do other people.

In a nutshell, I want to develop my players how I see fit. I don't want their fate decided randomly.

*phew*