Kickers and Kicking - like or hate?

ljm · Post by **ljm** » Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:10 am

I really like the kicking rules and the league I run uses them. I think they could be included in the LRB, but they should be put in an appendix and listed as optional. Those last round field goal attempts are exciting and I have seen tight games won (and lost) because of them. However, no team has ever won relying only on FGs and everyone tries to score regular TDs whenever possible. I think this would change were the scoring system changed according to Teemu's suggestion.

ljm

littlemute · Post by **littlemute** » Fri Oct 18, 2002 3:07 am

Thanks for the input. I've looked at chet's new rules and it's better with strength I agree, but the fact that it changes the scoring is troubling. I think I'll include it in the league and set it to the same value as a TD and see what happens. Probably the rules will be ignored as it requires specialized players not normally on the rosters.

lm

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Fri Oct 18, 2002 5:46 am

But let us know how the TD = FG rule seemed like when you've played enough of games - I really dislike the 3pts, 2pts -system but if your league shows that FG's become too rampant, then I guess I'll have to adapt. But I'm hopeful that it won't happen.

woodmeister · Post by **woodmeister** » Fri Oct 18, 2002 8:48 am

Not being a BB guru, master or average player I can't comment on the how the rules effect the game. I'm new at this me.

But from a general standpoint I don't see why kicking shouldn't be included. It's a sim of sorts based on Rugby and American Football which do have an element of kicking, although Rugby much more so. I suppose being this side of the pond I see it more from a Rugby point of view than American Football POV.

If it doesn't over complicate or ruin the game flow I say include 'em.

Now I shall get me coat!

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Fri Oct 18, 2002 2:36 pm

Some people want it, some people don't, and both should be pleased.

To me the solution is simple.

The BB rulebook already has the stupid and redundant "Extra rules"-part. I've never seen anyone who doesn't use the extra rules and everyone considers them to be part of the core rules.

1. Move the "Extra" rules to normal rules

2. Now, introduce Extra rules -section as follows:

--------------BEGIN-----------
Extra Rules

The following section contains official house rule add-ons. They are finalised versions of popular house rules and are fully optional. Your league commissioner decides whether your league uses any of these. These rules are considered as improvements by some and as revolting by others. Unlike many house rules available from the internet, these are fully tested and balanced with the core rules, the very reason why they're included! This section is a safe place for a new (and the more veteran ones too!) commissioner to look for nice house rules to include in his league.

Table of contents:
1. Kicking rules
2. blahblah
3. blahblah2
4. etc.
----------------END-------------------

Now this should make all concerned parties content:
The rule is in the rulebook and has an official status. Still, no-one is forced to use them!
You can always say that they wouldn't have to use them anyhow, but that's pretty much the same as saying that no-one has to use "Interception"-rules from the rulebook. It's true - no-one has to, but everyone does, because after all they are official rules. The suggestion above should solve that.

EDIT: fixed the size tags...

Martin · Post by **Martin** » Fri Oct 18, 2002 3:11 pm

I totally agree with Teemu. An optional rule section would be a great idea. I haven't played with the kicking rules but don't really want to add it to the rules. Just not what I'm looking for. But on the other hand many of you seem to really like them. So to keep everyone happy the optional idea sounds good.

Martin

DaFrenchCoach · Post by **DaFrenchCoach** » Fri Oct 18, 2002 3:21 pm

A really great idea... Hope the guruz would read this !

tchatter · Post by **tchatter** » Fri Oct 18, 2002 4:16 pm

Punt (Kicking Skill)

A player with this skill is great at getting the ball downfield without a lot of accuracy. The player must roll a modified 2+ (only tackle zones count for modifiers and a Punt cannot be Kick Blocked). On a modified 1, the Punt is fumbled. On a modified 2+, the ball may be targeted at any square on the pitch. After selecting a target square, roll for scatter and a D6 for the number of sqaures it scatters in that direction (just like a kickoff roll). This is the actually square the ball lands in. Note: a Field Goal can never be scored by using the Punt skill.

With this added in it makes it more like Rugby then ever before. Granted this isn't a bad thing... but I could see some real potential with Skaven here. Simply punt, scoop up with a GR, rinse, and repeat.

Someday I will have to play a game or two with the kicking rules and make an educated decision, but at this point I think that it is something that should be REALLY thought out and playtested before being implemented officially.[/quote]

Joshua Dyal · Post by **Joshua Dyal** » Fri Oct 18, 2002 4:24 pm

Perhaps, but punting in this fashion is an american football practice as well.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Fri Oct 18, 2002 5:41 pm

tchatter wrote: With this added in it makes it more like Rugby then ever before. Granted this isn't a bad thing... but I could see some real potential with Skaven here. Simply punt, scoop up with a GR, rinse, and repeat.

Nice thought, but a Kick action (which includes using the Punt skill) ends your turn. ... so its not as powerful as you think.

Someday I will have to play a game or two with the kicking rules and make an educated decision

They are programmed into the PBeM tool, just set up a game using the MBBL rules from the league select menu and play against yourself to see what you think.

, but at this point I think that it is something that should be REALLY thought out and playtested before being implemented officially.

The original rules had been tested for almost 250 games played under them. I have statistics on 200 of those games that if you wanted I could share. The new rules are basically the same as that set but cleaner, so the original playtest data in my opinion is still a very valid road map. So my response would be they have be REALLY thought out and playtested.

But even though I very much like the kicking rules, I wouldn't mind if the LRB had a section of GW santioned optional rules in the back and kicking was the first one added in such a manner. I really like the rules but I'm not sold that they HAVE to be part of the official tournament rule set.

Galak

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Fri Oct 18, 2002 8:26 pm

How many of those 250 games were in a league with BB2K1 rules and no house rules? How many of those 250 games allowed the Chaos Pact or Old World teams?
I can tell from my current game that in the next half my opponent is going to have severe problems on defense. I have removed all but 5 of his players from the pitch and I have another turn of destruction yet to go. If he doesn't make some very lucky KO rolls he will be hard pressed to stop my gutter runner from scoring (whether by TD or FG). I basically plan beating the remaining 7 or 8 players he has left to pulp and then scoring at will during the 4th quarter.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Sat Oct 19, 2002 8:04 am

I also agree with Mestari. This change is badly needed. Besides, if they don't do it soon, they'll have problems with official tournaments, as they won't be able to use half the rules since they're only optional! This should have been done a long time ago.

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Sat Oct 19, 2002 12:16 pm

IMO no point in trying to prove that the kicking rules are wrong because an experimental team could perhaps misuse them. However, I can't perceive that the strength of the C.Pact team is in field goals - it's the mix of players that I'm worried about.
Lot's of block, great ball-handling ability, high-speed players, and the potential to get lots of ST. If the team is able to realise all the potential it has, the it surely is rather overpowered, but to me the question remains whether my chaos pact team (the Malleus Beneficarum) is ever able to reach their full player potential.

Well, I'll get back to you about their success as soon as the dungeonbowl tournament ends (I'm in it with my dwarves) and I get to play more games with the Malleus.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Sun Oct 20, 2002 7:09 am

Pariah wrote:How many of those 250 games were in a league with BB2K1 rules and no house rules?

200 at least. The MBBL3 was a PBeM league BB2k1 rules only, no house rules. 13 coaches playing 26 teams with 5 days allowed play times. In 6 weeks, we played 200 games.

How many of those 250 games allowed the Chaos Pact or Old World teams?

None, but the Chaos Pact and Old World teams if they have problems with kicking its because they have issues with scoring also.

Galak

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Sun Oct 20, 2002 8:40 am

I'm not so sure that's true.
I'm about to start the 2nd half with Piotr. He will be fielding a grand total of 5 players. There is currently no score but I really think that's because my plan wasn't to score but to maim.
With 5 players he may have a chance at stopping a TD since it will take me at least 2 turns to score one. With 2 MA 6 players he can reach my GR and throw a 2 dice blitz no matter what. But with 5 players there's is no way he can put 3 men on the line and cover the backfield to block or even make it difficult to kick. And as I said before I'm using an MA 9 AG 4 kicker. It's not gonna be real hard.
The gutter runner can easily start unobstructed from the LoS. Move 9 squares down to the middle of the his backfield, roll a 3+ followed by another 3+. He also has a reroll if he misses one of those rolls.