What if Cyanide did to BloodBowl what GW did to Warhammer?

[Dr. Von Richten]

The point I was trying to make about being supposed to own the boardgame whas meant to illustrate what FUMMBL what supposed to be. That it evolved into somethig totally different is another matter.

My other point is that this game was designed for certain playstyles, FUMMBL Black Box or Ranked not being amongst them. So if you play in a way the game was not designed for and then discover that the game is broken, that's like taking normal car for off-road cross country travel. It can work to some extent, but don't blame the car if it breaks down. Instead, blame yourself for taking the car where it wasn't made to go.

[koadah]

You are right in terms of min/maxing. But the rules are supposed to be for 'perpetual' leagues. Regular leagues stil lrun into the CPOMB issue if you play for long enough. On line leagues just get there quicker.

My main grip is that Fumbbl chooses to follow the NAF when the NAF are mainly concerned with resurrection tournaments.

So yeah, them & us. Resurrection is just a different game.

[dode74]

Regular leagues stil lrun into the CPOMB issue if you play for long enough. On line leagues just get there quicker.

Which ones? OCC is on season 28 of perpetual play and does not have an issue.

[straume]

Regular leagues stil lrun into the CPOMB issue if you play for long enough.

This always puzzles me, as it seems that many people have this view. The CRP was designed exactly so that perpetual leagues might run (unlike LRB4, for instance).

And it seems to me that it actually works pretty well. OCC as the example is now in Season 28 and it runs smoothly. I believe we have 9 different races that have won the title (Wood Elf, High Elf, Dark Elf, Lizardmen, Chaos, Nurgle, Necro, Orc). Heck! Even dwarves have finished second! Sure, some teams are destroyed (or are unable to manage TV/gold), but this is just how it is supposed to be.

I get that "everyone" hates claw, and that that useless apo causes a lot of grief, but I get really nervous when someone suggest nerfing Claw, or PO or buffing apo. Or all of the above. I think the claw design is pretty clever as it makes sure the slow developing AV9 killers actually kill each other just as well as anyone else. Changing this would be, imo, a drastic change and we are really risking a nice balance where teams as Nurgle and Chaos do not dominate (they are good, sure, but not dominating) at high tv as one might fear.

[harvestmouse]

I think if you run a league with a certain rock/paper/scissors system or a max of each race, then you should deviate the cpomb problem to an extent. You'll always get these teams though in a competitive league. Chaos have strength & mutation access on everything, so there's more to them than CPOMB. I do agree though that Claw is clever and works perfectly (just not in tandem with POMBing) and shouldn't be touched, even though it's horrible fluffwise.

Pile oning, I'd like to see stay the same, but limited on who can take it. No way Chaos should have access to 16 CPOMBers that can get it in 2 (or 1) skills without rolling a double.

[lunchmoney]

This is a ClawPOMB thread now?

[koadah]

This is a ClawPOMB thread now?

LOL. Every thread is a...

No. Wait.

If you are happy with it Dode then you keep it. NAF res tournaments are unlikely to even see a CPOMBer. Which was the main point. Should have left it at that I suppose.

My league currently has The WMDs

Even with the nerfs applied they have been Heavyweight Champions multiple times. They do not dominate in terms of winning every league. IMO without the nerfs they would dominate in terms of discouraging people from playing in the league.

Of course if no one chose to build their team that way it wouldn't be a problem. Also, if I just kicked them out as I have other teams. But the rules allow it and or course I think a tweak would be good.

The reason it is discussed here is that I for one am interested to see what Cyanide has done. I think that we should know in a few days. If they have done anything, will they have done it only to the public leagues or will there need to be another pitchfork campaign to have the changes undone for private leagues.

I did agree with Dode once. I think it was something to do with giving league commissioners options for how they run their leagues.

[dode74]

My league currently has The WMDs

Your league is an open league, not a "regular" one.

[koadah]

My league currently has The WMDs

Your league is an open league, not a "regular" one.

I assume that you mean 'round robin' when you say 'regular'. How many table top leagues play round robin compared to open round robin? Open round robin is closer to what is mentioned in the rule book than round robin.

I would say that open leagues are more 'regular' than round robin. If anything I would think that it is online play that has made round robin popular as it is easier to schedule matches compared to playing whoever can make it on a particular evening.

By complaining that the league is not regular are you saying anything other than "it would take a long time to become a killer if you only played once a week"?

Where are you OCC records so that we can have a look?

[dode74]

I assume that you mean 'round robin' when you say 'regular'. How many table top leagues play round robin compared to open round robin? Open round robin is closer to what is mentioned in the rule book than round robin.

"Regular" to me meant "on a schedule", i.e. regularly. Scheduled leagues are specifically mentioned in the rulebook (LRB6 page 31):

Finally, a League Commissioner can decide to run the regular season as a league with scheduled matches (like the FA Football League in England and Wales).

As far as open leagues go, the rulebook mentions challenges and the ability to refuse to play other teams. I assume yours does that, since you are claiming to be "closer" to the rulebook?

By complaining that the league is not regular are you saying anything other than "it would take a long time to become a killer if you only played once a week"?

Yes, I'm saying it's not in accordance with the rulebook. There are no problems I'm aware of in the vast majority of perpetual scheduled leagues, which is a format specifically mentioned in the rulebook. If your league members have a problem playing against the WMDs then are they able to not play them? And perhaps BillBrasky is just a very good Chaos coach - God knows he has had enough practice!

Where are you OCC records so that we can have a look?

What exactly are you after? Will this do: viewtopic.php?p=738037#p738037

[koadah]

Finally, a League Commissioner can decide to run the regular season as a league with scheduled matches (like the FA Football League in England and Wales).

As far as open leagues go, the rulebook mentions challenges and the ability to refuse to play other teams. I assume yours does that, since you are claiming to be "closer" to the rulebook?

OK, you got me. Though that does seem to be tacked on the end ( I won't say recently).

A team can play as often as a coach likes, assuming that he can find enough opponents of course!

Appears at the beginning of the leagues section and appears to have been in the rules much longer. So, 'regular'.

By complaining that the league is not regular are you saying anything other than "it would take a long time to become a killer if you only played once a week"?

Yes, I'm saying it's not in accordance with the rulebook. There are no problems I'm aware of in the vast majority of perpetual scheduled leagues, which is a format specifically mentioned in the rulebook. If your league members have a problem playing against the WMDs then are they able to not play them? And perhaps BillBrasky is just a very good Chaos coach - God knows he has had enough practice!

Where are you OCC records so that we can have a look?

What exactly are you after? Will this do: viewtopic.php?p=738037#p738037

No that is not what I am after. I was after results, reports, rosters, match data like on Fumbbl. I wasn't intending to study it for too long. Just to see how nasty the teams looked.
We have other nasty teams. My own orcs are quite nasty when at full strength.

I don't consider Bill's win/loss record to be that relevant here. It is more about how effective killers they would be if they had not been nerfed. They can still be pretty nasty as it is.

[dode74]

Appears at the beginning of the leagues section and appears to have been in the rules much longer. So, 'regular'.

Nice attempt at self-justification there

For OCC teams etc you'll need to look either at BBManager or in-game. I love the data accessibility FUMBBL gives but Cyanide doesn't do that.

If you don't consider Bill's win/loss to be relevant why did you bring up his titles? It's all about win/loss.

[adhansa]

[Rant]

Where in the rules does it specify how a league is supposed to run? From what i have read in the rules it could prety much be arranged any way the commishoner wants to.

I don't think it's fair to critisize certain environments for not playing according to the rules (conserning league environment, not game mechanics) , when the rules
- allow the leagues not to play according to the suggested rules
- have bin written in such a way that no league i have seen yet play fully according to the suggested rules

So the rules might work for a schedualed league with a well mixed variaty of races. But thas is actully not the only way to run leagues, according to the rules. If it was it would limit people of be able to participate in league play, compared to current rules. Is that what we want? To say, fine, play wthe way you want, but we choose not to have rules that work well unless you play in a very organized, restricted league setting.

[Rant/]

[dode74]

Absolutely agree. The problem happens when leagues demand they play the official rules even when they patently need a house rule, and then demand such a house rule be the official rule because they play it and they want to be playing the official rules.

The above does not apply to koadah who I know cares not about house, official or made up rules as labels. And fair play for that.

[plasmoid]

Hi all,
just for something completely different:

OCC as the example is now in Season 28 and it runs smoothly. I believe we have 9 different races that have won the title (Wood Elf, High Elf, Dark Elf, Lizardmen, Chaos, Nurgle, Necro, Orc).

So that's almost like rolling the d6 28 times, and getting a 1 or 2 on all of them. Sounds rough.

Cheers
Martin

PS - yeah, I'm on about balance. Boring day at Work