GW annual shareholder meeting - 2015 - future of Blood Bowl

[PercyTheTroll]

As a business model I see the dedication to minis to be a very short term one. The advent of affordable 3d printing is surely going to dent their sales even if people don't instantly start pirating their models (and I suspect that people will instantly pirate their models).

Maybe they anticipate that the dedicated collectors will keep on buying no matter what but if I were them I'd be looking to exploit the new 3d printing market. Sell software that allows you to identikit together and pose a space marine that can then be printed ready for painting. Sell extra software packs for different gear or races and you probably make more money because you don't have the costs of casting and you only design the 3d model assets once.

[GJK]

Please excuse the very newbish post but is Jervis Johnson still involved in the game in any way and if so, is he still working for or with GW? Or did he sell the rights completely to GW?

I'm also curious about what kind of new production for BB it is that we'd like to see from GW; new teams? Seems to me that the RAW (LRB6.0) are stable and accepted. GW could perhaps design new teams/mini's but what else could they do? Everyone already makes their own or buys 3rd party accessories for the game.

Again, just being curious.

[PercyTheTroll]

JJ works for GW and has done for years. It's an interesting question as to what he does with his time these days if rules are not a priority for the company.

AFAIK he doesn't own the rights to BB and never did - he wrote it whilst an employee so the rights belong to GW (in so far as you can own the rights to a game - it would be legal to publish a game with identical rules but different wording and fluff).

JJ is not involved with BB any more as GW is also not involved in BB any more.

[GalakStarscraper]

Raveen has it correct.

JJ never owned BB ... he just created the game while an employee of GW.

Similarly I don't own any part of BB because while I rewrote about 50% of the current rulebook, I signed an agreement up front that my work was the property of GW for BB.

I have no idea what JJ does now. An interesting question ... if GW is moved beyond game rules ... what does a game designer do for the company?

As for buying the BB IP. The last time I asked I was told that 1M GBP was the price. That was about 8 years ago though.

[macabeo]

What a strange argument. Are you suggesting that whether we're fond of the IP or not (and do you think I'd dedicate so much energy to the hobby if I wasn't?) should prevent us even attempting to look at this objectively?

The fact of the matter here is that GW is a plc. They have a responsibility to maximise returns for their shareholders. They've decided on a business strategy for that reason. Just because you and I would rather they hadn't - for our own personal reasons - doesn't mean they're 'proud', 'stubborn' or 'blind'. It probably just means that they've worked out where the money is, and its not in the things we want them to sell.

It's sad we've lost the GW of the eighties, but that entity has long gone; this is the route GW have taken and it's unlikely to change any time soon. There are plenty of other, smaller companies to give your money to.

I actually agree with you, Shteve0. GW is a private company with certain goals and they are free to do as they deem most appropriate to achieve them.

My negative comment was merely a personal rant as a BB fan after reading the article. I used the terms "pride", "stubbornness" and "blindness" because in the article they claim that they don't do research on their customer base and that they dictate how things will be independently of any feedback received; essentially a "take it or leave" thing.

Can I criticize their way of monetizing what they got from a business point of view? No. Does this displease me as a hobbyist? Sadly yes.

[RoterSternHochdahl]

As for buying the BB IP. The last time I asked I was told that 1M GBP was the price. That was about 8 years ago though.

So this is the Price to have regular conversations with Cyanide

On a side note, I should check whether somebody has started a Kickstarter already

[lunchmoney]

As for buying the BB IP. The last time I asked I was told that 1M GBP was the price. That was about 8 years ago though.

Let me check my spare wallet.....

[Dr. Von Richten]

Thanks for sharing. I don't think that article told us anything we didn't already know, though, even if deep down we (well, I anyway) still hold out some hope against all logic and reason that GW will return to be a company that wants to make cool games instead of a company that makes a lot of money.

[Regash]

Just the idea...
Wouldn't that be great?
Think about a game that is owned by it's own player community...

deep down we (well, I anyway) still hold out some hope against all logic and reason that GW will return to be a company that wants to make cool games instead of a company that makes a lot of money.

I might be wrong but way back in time, when GW was like that, they never really had happy shareholders.
Every now and then there were rumours of GW being close to broke.

To be honest, now that I am through with WH40K and honestly only play BB from their range, I'd say I don't need them (GW) any more.
I much prefer quicker skirmish systems like Warmachine/Hordes when playing TT games.
A couple of years ago, we tested it. A full game of Warmachine has been played in an amount of time the WH40K guys needed to just set up.

Do I hate GW or their point of view for making money nowadays?
No, I don't. I wish them luck because they introduced me (at a large amount of money spent) to table top games. And I thank them for it.
Going to at least three or four rulebooks with my Space Marine army, I thought they didn't really evolve or modernize their games.
They just tweaked the rules. What they did now with Warhammer is a rather bold move and I wish them luck with it.
(Their miniatures are still great for kitbashing and converting your own BB teams! )

[Fassbinder75]

Bandying about figures while admitting you don't do customer research is foolish. Not doing customer research and asserting that you know what the customer wants is arrogant and setting yourself up for a fall. That's a business model from well back into the 20th century, and while they've built profit on the back of increasing prices and reducing costs they have hollowed out their customer base. Other companies are taking their market share, their sales volume is reducing and while GW have done a marvellous job of squeezing their customers since the takeover, everything has a limit.

I wouldn't invest in them. 10, 15 years ago, sure.

[Wulfyn]

Galak I think you have drawn the wrong conclusion from the report. It is clear from their business practices that GW are taking a different approach to 10 years ago, but it is not that they are uninterested in their games but rather they are looking to maximise their profit in a different model.

The threat of 3d printing requires them to focus on design and production quality and this is not cheap. It is a mistake to diversify your efforts too far and so they have decided to focus on their large scale armies as that is what they do best. It does open a channel for competitors to make models for smaller ranges using crowdfunding but these companies have very low fixed costs. GW have decided that this cannot pay.

But they have not abandoned their own games. Deciding that money cannot be made from miniatures in these lines they no longer face the threat of lost profits from digital play. They admitted that their failure to keep up to date was a mistake and you can see this from their recent practices.

Cyanide re-acquired / kept the rights to make a new blood bowl game. We have recently seen a space hulk computer game and a mordheim game is also in early access on steam. There is a man o war game called corsair in development and also a warhammer end times action game. GW are not abandoning these games to the fans and independent companies to keep them going, they are licensing them out to computer game developers.

It is those developers that will control the future of those games.

[Regash]

What do computer games have to do with hobbyists?
Giving the BB license to Cyanide and outright refusing to keep rules up to date or rerelease the boardgame is abandoning the game in my book.
And all their specialist games have had the same treatment.
There will be a Mortheim PC game, yes. But you will probably never see Mortheim return to the tabletop, where it belonged.
Giving out licenses is nothing than quick and easy made money.

I want to handle miniatures.
PC games, there are enough on the makret already, don't you think?
And look what Cyanide did to BB2 with all those random and unnecessary rule changes!

I hope you see my point.

[Wulfyn]

Computer games have little to do with hobbyists. That's my point. GW used to think they did so stopped making the likes of Chaos Gate and Final Liberation and Shadow of the Horned Rat for fears that miniature sales would reduce. They now have a different perspective. Blood Bowl as a game is not dead or left to hobbyists to keep alive, it has moved to a different medium.

Your book counts very little. The rules are being kept 'up to date' by Cyanide. They might not be who you want to keep them up to date but closing your eyes won't make them go away.

Mordheim has an active and dedicated community like BB has. Not surprising as it is a good game. With regard to returning to the tabletop if you mean GW producing miniatures then I agree, but alternates are not hard to get ( I have an awesome Black Scorpion pirate skeleton crew). Licences are not only a good way to profit on an asset but also good advertising in drawing in new customers.

Are there enough PC games on the market? That's a bit of an unquantifiable question. Enough for what? If Cyanide or any other developer can make a profit then the answer is there are not too many. Not quite the same question as you asked, but looking at the reddit BB community shows that the PC game is drawing in a lot of new players ( all of which seem to be playing chaos).

I am definitely on your side with regard to it being a shame that it has not been better supported with miniatures. Even tho I am a gamer first and a hobbyist second i do like pushing bits of plastic around and rolling dice. I think GW could have taken an EA model of purchasing a small low cost games house to run the smaller games for them, akin to the specialist games division of old. Cheaper production costs has allowed for this to happen, but is not the unified model GW want.

But we don't get to pick what they do with their game. We missed the boat on interacting with Cyanide. Many people here were saying that GW own the game and control all aspects of it and Cyanide are lucky to be alive given the strong arm of GW's legal department. Others like myself were saying that this was not the case and Cyanide are the de facto owners of BB as they licence the name and artwork and can do why they like with the rules as you cannot protect a ruleset. As a community we should have recognised the change in the wind, and I think the GW hatred and lamentation over long ago privileges no longer being around caused focus in the wrong place.

Cyanide have made some interesting decisions to say the least and like you i am not a fan of them. But we decided to ignore them. That's on us.

[Regash]

We missed the boat on interacting with Cyanide.

Unfortunately, it is Cyanide who is not interested in any kind of communication.
From what I have heard and read, every effort to get in touch with Cyanide about Blood Bowl, be it rules, bugs, concerns or whatever, have been outright ignored.

"Making a profit" is pretty easy today, as nerds will buy almost everything that has the name of their favorite franchise printed on it.
Blood Bowl II will be a succsess just because it's Blood Bowl.
I have been the bad guy in the german forum for not liking BB2 while development.
I have been the bad guy for critize their DLC-crap.
I even have been the bad guy when Beta started and a lot of those who preordered where less than impressed with what they got.
Even with so many bad reviews and bugs and whatnot, I'm still the bad guy and people, reading about it not being that good, still throw their money at Cyanide.

I just dont get it!

[sann0638]

We missed the boat on interacting with Cyanide.

No, we didn't. We were standing next to the boat waving our arms and saying "let us on the boat", but they ploughed on into the iceberg without us.