GW annual shareholder meeting - 2015 - future of Blood Bowl

[lunchmoney]

We missed the boat on interacting with Cyanide.

No, we didn't. We were standing next to the boat waving our arms and saying "let us on the boat", but they ploughed on into the iceberg without us.

Where's that "like" button?

[Dr. Von Richten]

I might be wrong but way back in time, when GW was like that, they never really had happy shareholders.
Every now and then there were rumours of GW being close to broke.

To be honest, now that I am through with WH40K and honestly only play BB from their range, I'd say I don't need them (GW) any more.
I much prefer quicker skirmish systems like Warmachine/Hordes when playing TT games.
A couple of years ago, we tested it. A full game of Warmachine has been played in an amount of time the WH40K guys needed to just set up.

Do I hate GW or their point of view for making money nowadays?
No, I don't. I wish them luck because they introduced me (at a large amount of money spent) to table top games. And I thank them for it.
Going to at least three or four rulebooks with my Space Marine army, I thought they didn't really evolve or modernize their games.
They just tweaked the rules. What they did now with Warhammer is a rather bold move and I wish them luck with it.
(Their miniatures are still great for kitbashing and converting your own BB teams! )

You're probably right. Hence the 'against all logic and reason' part of my post.

But I still want GW to produce the old school armies for WFB, the metal ones, where Chaos Dwarfs have silly hats, Orcs look like the happy slappers that they are, and the whole thing wasn't taken so seriously!

And also Mordheim, and Blood Bowl of course and WFRP, and all sorts of fun and silly things, shareholders be damed!

I know it doesn't work like that, but that doesn't stop me from wanting it anyway!

[Darkson]

If GW want some "free" money they should license out some of their old miniature ranges to someone like Wargames Foundry. Let the caster pay for making new moulds etc (which was one of their arguments for not doing them anymore). Smaller companies can make smaller runs more efficiently (another reason they stopped).

[Wulfyn]

We missed the boat on interacting with Cyanide.

No, we didn't. We were standing next to the boat waving our arms and saying "let us on the boat", but they ploughed on into the iceberg without us.

Then you didn't do a good enough job.

If GW want some "free" money they should license out some of their old miniature ranges to someone like Wargames Foundry. Let the caster pay for making new moulds etc (which was one of their arguments for not doing them anymore). Smaller companies can make smaller runs more efficiently (another reason they stopped).

Totally agree, that would be an effective model. Many large companies, especially tech ones, make acquisition a core part of their business model. GW could not just licence to someone like Wargames Foundry, they could purchase a controlling interest in them as well. Then you get all the benefits of the small efficient company without having to worry about them getting so big one day they start to rival you.

[Regash]

You didn't do a bad job in talking to someone who outright refuses to answer you.
I'd like to see you try!

Cyanide holds a license, the NAF is just a fan based community.
Do you really think they give a sh*t about the NAF?
And, let's be honest, would you?

The license of making older minis would be an easy way to make money for GW.
But here is the deal: They believe that 80 % of their customers are not the gamers but the modellers and collectors.
Those older miniatures (as you can see in this forum, where people are trying to get a team from a certain edition) are collectors items.
Recast them wouldn't be nice, having them made by another company even worse.
I hope you see my point.

[Itchen Masack]

When the announcement came there was to be a boat, were there offers to help design it? Might have been but I didn't hear them (and perhaps why should I?)

When the boat was being built, did we offer to build it? I didn't hear any offer.

When the boat was near completion and its destination revealed, what happened then? There was a protest at the shipyard gates, which the builders actually listened to (optional ageing I believe?)

And now the boat is on the water, only now the arms are waving and asking to get on.

This might not be what has actually happened, but it is how things appeared to me, a scrub who only reads forums. So maybe the boat is going the 'wrong' way, and maybe it is riddled with holes, but I'd say it had been missed. And that is the greatest shame.

[Wulfyn]

Well maybe that was the mistake in the approach. If you say something like 'we are the NAF, we own bb, you need to talk to us', then I can totally see why they would want nothing to do with them. I wouldn't either.

I thought sann's metaphor was interesting and revealing. He likened himself to someone on the sidelines (helpless) waving his arms (passive), expecting the cyanide boat to come to him. And then when it didn't he insulted them by saying it went into an iceberg. Is that the attitude that cyanide want to deal with?

But let's be clear cyanide did interact with elements of the community. Like it or hate it we have community created rules now in the game like the bretonnian team. So just because you were unsuccessful doesn't mean it is the other person's fault, and time after time I see posts on here of people making themselves out to be the victims of decisions made by Cyanide or GW and expressing their hatred to them. That's not going to work.

Ragash, I'm not sure how aware you are of it but the final line of your posts is an extremely simple and effective means of persuasion. 'I hope you see my point' is a direct appeal for other people to discuss with you in a co-operative way. It is an invitation for people to take a moment to see you as a person and treat you as such. If we applied that sort of appeal mixed with a humility that Cyanide are in charge and we genuinely want to help rather than control I don't think we'd be in this position now.

[sann0638]

I thought sann's metaphor was interesting and revealing. He likened himself to someone on the sidelines (helpless) waving his arms (passive), expecting the cyanide boat to come to him. And then when it didn't he insulted them by saying it went into an iceberg. Is that the attitude that cyanide want to deal with?

Think you could do better? You'd be very welcome to try.

[Regash]

Ragash, I'm not sure how aware you are of it but the final line of your posts is an extremely simple and effective means of persuasion. 'I hope you see my point' is a direct appeal for other people to discuss with you in a co-operative way. It is an invitation for people to take a moment to see you as a person and treat you as such. If we applied that sort of appeal mixed with a humility that Cyanide are in charge and we genuinely want to help rather than control I don't think we'd be in this position now.

Since english is not my first language, there might be a misunderstanding.
The phrase "I hope you see my point." is meant in a way that I say that I really hope you don't get me wrong, that you understand what I am trying to say.

There is no "we", at least not for me, in the approach to Cyanide. I didn't try to talk to them and I probably never would. My approach to games like BB2 is to wait and see what the got in stock and then, using the customers power of the "holy wallet", decide if I spend money on it or not. I don't belive in half done games or day one patches. I don't believe in a 14 days Beta with only half a game to test. I don't believe tons of DLCs to be a fair marketing startegy and I don't believe in random rule changes. So I chose to keep my wallet shut.
Since when is it the fans problem to create a good game?

I didn't say "Cyanide had to listen to the NAF!" (or any other BB-community). I just said they didn't listen when they were approached.
And to be honest, when did you expect the fans to contact Cyanide? Right from the start when a BB2 was announced? I usually trust the developers to research a board game before they try to turn it into a computer game and also, I thought there was info and response to BB1 that Cyanid knew what to do with BB2. Sad enough they didn't. And then turn deaf when the community starts to complain about design choices, like partial rule from plasmoid, even taking outdated info like the 90K orc blitzers. This is why I called Cyanide arrogant. To use Itchens metaphor: Why would anyone start complaining about the ships quality BEFORE they even know it's got no crew and is full of holes?

[Wulfyn]

The phrase "I hope you see my point." is meant in a way that I say that I really hope you don't get me wrong, that you understand what I am trying to say.

That's my point - it is an extremely effective and simple way of getting people on your side. You reach out a hand to them showing that you are interested in a shared undertanding, rather than just trying to drill your point home. It works well because you are demonstrating co-operation. Many people who have English as their first language are not as good at doing that as you are.

To use Itchens metaphor: Why would anyone start complaining about the ships quality BEFORE they even know it's got no crew and is full of holes?

Because you can't design a boat after it has been built.

Think you could do better? You'd be very welcome to try.

Do you think that your response to me has created an environment of co-operation? How do you think I feel about you when I read your message? Have you brought me on your side, or have you driven a wedge between us?

People who volunteer their free time to the NAF should be applauded and respected for their efforts. The community would be much worse without the dedication of those people. I absolutely include you within that. You spend your time on these forums, on fumbbl, on youtube, other social media, and the wider community promoting the game. I believe that we need more good players coming into the scene to continue existing, and you play your part in ensuring that.

But does that mean that you get everything right? Does that mean that others are obliged to listen to what you have to say? Does that give you any ownership? These are not things that are automatic. The hardest thing is to be honest with yourself. When I see people say they tried and then blame the other side I think about the other half of the story. As a community we believe that the NAF has an authority, and our primary method of persuasion seems to be using that authority. But cyanide do not recognise that authority, so instead we blame them for not recognising it.

Then we see someone like plasmoid who's ideas have made it into the game. Do we see this as an opportunity to build bridges? Do we promote plasmoid as an example of what the community has to offer and say there are more good people that can help out? No, we blast the bretonnians as a terrible team and start a 20 page thread dissecting the merit of CRP+ (including the name).

Do we see what favours we can do for them to see if they reciprocate? Maybe we did tell them we would promote their game for free at tournaments. Maybe we did ask them to send some devs to the NAF championship to do a Q&A on the Satuday evening. Maybe we asked if we could pre-purchase some copies of the game in order to run a competition.

And even when they tell us no do we promote them and the community that they are building or do we get upset and say they have crashed into an iceberg?

When I went on the steam community page yesterday it said there were 4,138 people currently in game. There will be more on the consoles. The first 2 people I played on Blood Bowl 2 were Russian. The reddit blood bowl page is full of new players looking for help. I played a really nice guy today that had a good grasp of things but was clearly new and making a lot of rookie errors. No rerolls, Rat Ogre, didn't use all his inducement money, and was a little too fond of 1 dice blocks at the start. I showed him to fumbbl and here, we discussed team selection, I showed him how to make a simple cage, and things started to twig. If we want him, and the thousands of other new players that Cyanide have brought into our community, to stick around, then there has never been a more important time for us to help them so they stay interested. You have never had a bigger and better opportunity sann to promote blood bowl, promote the NAF, promote Cyanide, and create a much larger and more lively community.

So you have a choice. You've missed the boat, and you are on the shore. Are you going to tell everyone the boat is heading for an iceberg, or are you going to find another boat and get as many people to set off after the first one as you can?

If we work together, we can make a difference.

[sann0638]

"You are not doing a good enough job" seemed like trolling to me. I'm not a big fan of unconstructive criticism. You are genuinely welcome to get involved, if you have any good ideas.

[Shteve0]

Wulfryn... you've taken a bit of a joke, wound it up into a straw man, and are now laying into the NAF for what we've said only in your imagination. It's the forum equivalent of abusing one of your friends for a week because you had a dream where they made a pass at your mum.

Maybe take a bit of a time out and think about whether or not you might be being a little uncharitable and overzealous (to Mike in particular) in your assessment of our approach, given that it's pretty much based entirely on some fairly wild guesswork.

[GalakStarscraper]

Cyanide in the past has used members of TFF to help them get things correct.

Twice I've been involved in that effort.

Twice I've seen things go wrong because Cyanide would not listen to repeated messages about the problems they had in the software or the design concept.

I'm pretty sure TFF members were involved with BB2 (I was invited to help and this time I just did not have the time available to do so). So given that I'm 99% sure that Wulfryn is incorrect with his belief that the community did not get involved.

Also from 1st hand knowledge .... those folks are by contract NOT supposed to talk about helping Cyanide so they would if they want to keep from getting the multiple C&Ds I've collected NOT discuss it on a forum.

Also from 1st hand knowledge ... I'm pretty sure those people would tell you that they tried to get things fixed and working correctly but that they were ignored or overridden.

Finally ... all of my experience with Cyanide is that it is THEY who invite you to help ... trying to contact them and offer that assistance as Wulfryn is accusing others has never worked with them.

This is speak from personal experience over 2 different game versions. So Wulfryn and Itchen Masack ... honestly guys you know not of what you speak.

[Darkson]

+1 to Galak.

[Darkson]

I hope you see my point.

I see your point, but respectfully, I completely disagree with it.
IF 80% of their customers are collectors and not gamers (and how they can claim that with no market research...) it makes more sense to cast, or license out to cast, their old ranges, not less. Gamers will mostly buy "the latest thing" because they will need it for their current army; collectors will buy old stuff which has no use in games because they're collectors. There are Space Marine figures I'd still buy, even though I haven't played 40K for years, nor have any intention of playing it again. Same goes for WFB (Horned Rat ftw).

I can understand that with their current set-up to cast hundreds, if not thousands, of figures at a time it's not viable for them to make runs of old figures (and then you have to add the other stuff in like packaging and getting them on the store) which is why licensing the ranges out to companies, like Foundry, that are set up to make small runs makes sense (or even taking a controlling interest in one).