BB2 Full listof changes to crp

[garion]

Sorry Martin but that's just nonsense theory bowl, it's a non issue in real life, having money does not equal winning. Bank rule is overly complex and serves no purpose other than the stupid practice of cash dumping.

Actually it can help. Take a look at the inducements spent by RandomOracle on his way to winning FUMBBL Cup X. The bank would have prevented him taking at least a wizard and a couple of apothecaries. That's not to take away from his achievement: everyone was working under the same rules. It's merely pointing out that it does have a tangible real life effect.

Same for all teams though, its not like his team was the only one that had cash, as jimmy said, its a non issue, and people find bank very confusing, I've lost count of the niumber of times I have had to explain it to people. It just doesnt need to be in the game.

Its clumsy because of the way it interacts with Tv.

"this pile of cash is free" but if you want this pile of cash it makes your TV higher"

"screw that, I will poor the pile of gold in the sea then"

Cash in crp is a non issue. No one is remotely bothered by it, why change it just because you are butt hurt from JJs veto?

[dode74]

I know it's the same for all teams, but the fact is that not all teams are as able to hoard cash well as others. In this case it is an undeniably fact that because he was able to have more money than the bank would have allowed it had an influence on the result. Your claim was that it was a "non issue in real life". Clearly it is an issue. Your or my personal opinion on the bank itself won't change that fact.

[garion]

a bank of 150k is enough for a wizard anyway, so it doesnt change that from happening.

Plus there were probably another 400 occasions in that tournament alone in which someon bought a wizard or a bribe etc... and they didn't all win the tournament, you are adding 2+2 and getting a result of 1million.

cash doesn't = winning. No need for overcomplication.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

While my examples were correct for the bank rule it appears that cyanide have royally messed it up.
Apparently in BB2 money in the bank doesn't count to TV for matching purposes but is automatically transferred in the pre-game (instead of not being able to be transferred at all pre-game).
Also there is a bug which returns all money spent from treasury on inducements.

[dode74]

a bank of 150k is enough for a wizard anyway, so it doesnt change that from happening.

It does several games in a row, which is what happened.

Plus there were probably another 400 occasions in that tournament alone in which someon bought a wizard or a bribe etc... and they didn't all win the tournament, you are adding 2+2 and getting a result of 1million.

I'm not ignoring it: it's not relevant. This isn't about what everyone could do, and I am not saying the tournament was unfair. You said it is a "non issue in real life". Quite clearly it is an issue in real life as the example I gave you shows perfectly. The fact is that the tournament was won by someone who did something they would not have been able to do if cash was limited.

cash doesn't = winning. No need for overcomplication.

I didn't say cash does = winning, I said it can make a difference. It may well have done for RO as he did things he would not have been able to do without the cash. It might not, ofc, but we'll never know because he did do those things.

[garion]

What are you on about dode????

Its not an issue, or a "non issue" as I said, as it has no bearing on winning over all, because anyone can do it, so what exactly is the problem here?

I see Skaven winning and elves winning loads of tournaments and they don't seem to have as much money as say Chaos or undead so I'm confused about where you think this "issue" is?

As I have said many times its just over complication for complications sake.

Though I would be interested to see if you had any data on teams going in to tournaments with stock piles of cash and how well they progress, and what "problems" this actually causes.

I've never seen a problem in the last 5 years to do with money. Not once.

[GalakStarscraper]

The bank was created as a way to stop teams from hording gold for player replacement as they played multiple games. We wanted long term teams to have player death matter.

The backstory was that was in the rulebook before JJ purged it was that the NAF was willing to hold onto 100k (now 150k) for each team and make it available to them when they arrive at each location. Any amount over that was too risky for the NAF to transport so it was up to the teams to carry it with them. The risk of the gold being lost while traveling would lead them to want to spend it to maximize success for each match.

This rule was tested over many different leagues (and several continue to use it) with no issues at all. I never had any players report back to me that it was confusing.

Making the underdog spend first IS definitely adding to the confusion of this rule as it doesn't make sense and in fact is an advantage for the overdog that was never intended.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

This is some good advice from Tuomas Pirinen
" 1. MURDER YOUR DARLINGS
Jervis Johnson, my comrade-in-arms and the creator of Blood Bowl and many other great games taught me this one. In essence, his advice was always go through your design when the first draft is ready, identify your favorite part, and throw it out. Remove it. Kill it with fire. You heard the man.

I was in shock, but Jervis's reasoning was simple: you tend to spend too much time on your most cherished idea, and you will not treat it fairly when it comes to balancing the game or ensuring a narrative continuity. You will break other parts of the game or background to accommodate your Darling. Miyamoto Musashi described this as a great warrior who did not know how to fight in ranks and therefore had no place in an army.

It is very, very hard to differentiate between one of your darlings and the best features of the game. The surest way to find out is to to playtest your game and ask for feedback. If everyone hates what you are most enthusiastic about, then it might be one of Darlings that needs to meet the headman's axe.

Of course if everyone truly, really hates it, try to see if you can use it somehow. Great villains or enemies that have unfair advantages tend to be very memorable..."

If only the ex BBRC had forgotten about the bank rule.

[garion]

The bank was created as a way to stop teams from hording gold for player replacement as they played multiple games. We wanted long term teams to have player death matter.

The backstory was that was in the rulebook before JJ purged it was that the NAF was willing to hold onto 100k (now 150k) for each team and make it available to them when they arrive at each location. Any amount over that was too risky for the NAF to transport so it was up to the teams to carry it with them. The risk of the gold being lost while traveling would lead them to want to spend it to maximize success for each match.

This rule was tested over many different leagues (and several continue to use it) with no issues at all. I never had any players report back to me that it was confusing.

Making the underdog spend first IS definitely adding to the confusion of this rule as it doesn't make sense and in fact is an advantage for the overdog that was never intended.

I totally understand the reason for it. i just don't think it was needed, attrition was fine in CRP already (though imo too much came from CPOMB, and not enough from fouling and surfing which I would love to see buffed) I just find that an artificial method preventing teams re-building as easily isnt needed and in an open perpetual league will invariably cause more retirements of teams because of the money restriction - than not having bank, which doesn't seem to have been considered.

oh yeah, cyanide ballsing up is deffo not helping, and I understand you found no issue while using the bank, however I found no issue in the 5 years or so without the bank, so keep it simple and only having 1 pot is the way to go because its more straight forward.

[GalakStarscraper]

Garion,

I know you and I normally disagree and you have little love for the work I've done.

In this case I agree with you on several points.

1) CPoMB need fixed. I've seen several proposals. I still like the simplest one that use of Piling On does not allow you to use any skill modifiers to the roll (ie Claw and Mighty Blow do not work when you use Piling On). To me that was a clean and simple change to one skill that would have done a lot (and it should have been part of BB2 if Cyanide was making changes).
2) The Bank was added to the game as an alternate method of aging. One of the major things I found when I talked to players of the game was that they HATED players leaving their team through methods other than dying on the field. So I did my best to make sure that happened. IF you have Aging in the game (like Cyanide added) then you have ZERO reason to have the Bank. The idea with the Bank was that older teams with high TV players would have lessened ability to players and so would go through times of added vulnerability as Journeymen cannot fill all voids. These moments would put their key players at higher risk for isolation and injury. So the Bank OR Aging ... but not both ... both is just too many rules.
3) I agree Fouling should be buff. I liked the idea of giving back the +1 to AV for the Fouler himself. I also wanted Sneaky Git to at a minimum also act like the Guard skill for assisting or defending against fouls.

I wanted to post this because normally we do not agree on much ... but in this post by you ... I do agree with a lot of what you wrote.

[garion]

Garion,

I know you and I normally disagree and you have little love for the work I've done.

In this case I agree with you on several points.

1) CPoMB need fixed. I've seen several proposals. I still like the simplest one that use of Piling On does not allow you to use any skill modifiers to the roll (ie Claw and Mighty Blow do not work when you use Piling On). To me that was a clean and simple change to one skill that would have done a lot (and it should have been part of BB2 if Cyanide was making changes).
2) The Bank was added to the game as an alternate method of aging. One of the major things I found when I talked to players of the game was that they HATED players leaving their team through methods other than dying on the field. So I did my best to make sure that happened. IF you have Aging in the game (like Cyanide added) then you have ZERO reason to have the Bank. The idea with the Bank was that older teams with high TV players would have lessened ability to players and so would go through times of added vulnerability as Journeymen cannot fill all voids. These moments would put their key players at higher risk for isolation and injury. So the Bank OR Aging ... but not both ... both is just too many rules.
3) I agree Fouling should be buff. I liked the idea of giving back the +1 to AV for the Fouler himself. I also wanted Sneaky Git to at a minimum also act like the Guard skill for assisting or defending against fouls.

I wanted to post this because normally we do not agree on much ... but in this post by you ... I do agree with a lot of what you wrote.

I think we agree on more than you think, I just don't talk about the stuff we agree on often because its fine like that cpomb fix, that is more than enough of a nerf, and it is what I have always used. Its the common sense approach to the skill really.

I just hated things like removal of SW ref roll, removal of traits, removal of cumulative TV increase, almost all the sill changes to star players, such as griff losing leap etc... the changes to Ogres, Decay on the Tomb Guardians.....

Sneaky git as Guard didnt do enough It was used and maintained its current CRP rules as well, played about 8 seasons with 8 games a season in two seperate leagues both had KO cup competitions as well with this rule and no one took it. +1 to av self assist was switched on those leagues as well. Its just not enough of a buff it just go ignored.

However tackle not working on titchy players was used in those 2 leagues and that made no difference, ogres still completely sucked.

just incase you were interested.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

There is only 1 treasury. No "Bank".
You can always move treasury/Cash into Petty Cash - but when you do, your team value increases (reducing inducements by the same ammount, if you were getting any).
The "Bank" cap was just that any Cash above the cap was automatically moved to Petty Cash - meaning that it Counts towards TV.

Woah Woah Woah. Are you saying that you have broken the bank rule and Cyanide have just done what you wanted?

[Jimmy Fantastic]

Also

Old Bank (before Petty Cash rule) allowed you to use any Cash you had already counted towards TV for inducements. So, if you had a 120TV team and 50K available, you'd be at 125TV already.

The latest version combines the existing Petty Cash rule with Bank:
You can tap into treasury for inducements, but that adds to TV (reducing the ammount of 'free/fake' Cash you'd be getting).
Bank rule just Means that any Cash in your treasury above 150K has to be added to Petty Cash (but not neccessarily spent) adding to TV.

In essence both versions do the same thing.
Is either of those how it Works in BB2?
Cheers
Martin

Ofc there is no "latest" bank rule unless your bank rule is what Cyanide are using.

Galak's rule expressly forbids moving money from the bank in the pre game.

Do you seriously fail to understand that these are very different rules?

Have any of the ex-BBRC signed off on this rule?

[dode74]

What are you on about dode????

Its not an issue, or a "non issue" as I said, as it has no bearing on winning over all, because anyone can do it, so what exactly is the problem here?

The fact that anyone can do it only matters when BOTH players in a single match can do it. Otherwise money does matter over a string of games. The fact that it WAS DONE over a string of games by a player who ended up winning the tournament means it is not a non issue at all, no matter how often you keep repeating the statement.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

You know what I like whenever I read about the bank rule? How Galak always goes on about how much playtesting they did of it and it was a great rule.

Well guess what? Petty cash has been playtested in literally millions of games and works fine.

But hey, we should totally use the only rule that the creator of Bloodbowl felt was bad enough to veto