The job to rewrite the rulebook has been posted

[rolo]

The foam "astrogranite" field is from Blood Bowl 2nd edition, released in 1988.

Every boxed set since then has contained the cardboard field.

[Deus Magi]

Right oh, so I'd guess they re-released the same set three times. 1994, 1998 and 2002.

Forgot to mention earlier:

From the FB post that accompanied the photo (emphasis mine):

"These tireless individuals, selflessly giving up their own free time to test the new season guidelines for this great game."

,........................., they're being referred to as "guidelines."

Thoughts?

Well GW rules have always, or usually do, have a phrase along the lines of these are the rules but if you agree with the other players then they are open to you playing how you like. I'd see that as a statement along those lines, rather than a set in stone "You WILL play like this!"

[Fold]

I'm sure it's nothing more than their "in character" voices (their FB page is run by Jim and Bob) whereby rules are referred to as guidelines, season is the new edition of the game and team kit = painted models.

[Deus Magi]

I've just nosed through that Facebook page. Very good to see that Jim and Bob are back commentating.

[spubbbba]

Well GW have just announced 3 ways to play Age of Sigmar, Open (as it is now), Narrative (campaign play) and matched (point driven).

Maybe they are thinking of doing something similar with Blood Bowl and mucking about with league and tournament play? They may leave the core rules largely the same but bring in a load new inducement and league type options. Maybe even some tournament rules based in the Bugman's?

[Milo]

Thoughts?

My thought is, the less they change, the happier I'll be.

If the rulebook is CRP plus the three "semi-official races", maybe reformatted with more fluff but the same crunch; a new field (same scale) and two pretty new teams (same scale), I will be so happy.

Thing is, if they released this -- same core rules, with no more than minor tweaks; refreshed field and supplemental templates; maybe some fresh fluff or league rules; two new great teams -- I think almost everyone who still owns a copy of the old Blood Bowl would go out and buy a copy of the new one too. I've got three of the old boards, but I'd be first in line to buy a new copy. They don't HAVE to change anything to get hardcore BB coaches to buy a new set. Lots of us would be happy to buy a new copy (or three) just to support GW for supporting BB again.

OTOH, if they drastically change the rules AND start trying to put 3rd party manufacturers out of business with legal shenanigans, I'll never buy from GW again. (They can and should try to put 3rd party manufacturers out of business by offering better minis at better prices.)

[Regash]

They can and should try to put 3rd party manufacturers out of business by offering better minis at better prices.

This! So +1!

[Deus Magi]

OTOH, if they drastically change the rules AND start trying to put 3rd party manufacturers out of business with legal shenanigans, I'll never buy from GW again. (They can and should try to put 3rd party manufacturers out of business by offering better minis at better prices.)

Perhaps fat on the fire, but GW have every right to take companies, or people to court, if they were stealing their IP. If doing so puts companies out of business then that's the fault of the company (not GW). If the court makes a legal ruling, then that's right, fair and proper. If I go out and punch someone in the face, that's my fault, I caused that to happen, and if I take a right beating because of it, should I get sympathy?

You then mention that GW "should try to put 3rd party manufacturers out of business by offering better minis at better prices." What if they cannot. Various companies could operate on a minimal profit, which a large company just couldn't. In fact, a small company, or fan making his own could actually operate on no profit at all, or even on a loss. Are GW to offer their products at no profit, or a loss as well? A lot of people are selling a product, with the purpose being for Bloodbowl, but when they cross a line, then the law is clear on that.

[Darkson]

As long as a 3rd party doesn't call them "Blood Bowl" figures, or use specific GW names (Skaven, Griff Oberwald etc) then there's nothing GW can do to stop them, and after the Chapterhouse ruling I expect they don't want to try.
What they can do is put out product of such high quality that the 3rd parties can't compete, which is what I believe Milo means.
But if they make product which is more expensive and/or of lower quality compared to what 3rd parties are doing then people will continue to buy elsewhere.

[VoodooMike]

Perhaps fat on the fire, but GW have every right to take companies, or people to court, if they were stealing their IP.

People like to toss around the term IP but there are very specific rights that exist, and very specific limits on those rights. Making 3rd party minis for games doesn't violate any of those unless those minis are close copies of existing minis. In fact, you could publish a game using exactly the same rules and it wouldn't violate any of them either.

Now, that doesn't mean they can't sue you anyway, or that they can try to make a shaky case that what you're doing is somehow unfair business practices, but that sort of lawsuit isn't usually launched with the idea that they'll win... rather that you'll back down because it's a knife fight using your bank accounts as weapons.

A lot of people are selling a product, with the purpose being for Bloodbowl, but when they cross a line, then the law is clear on that.

It's actually not very clear at all. In most of the western world there are no laws that specifically protect GW's interests in these cases... so they have to come up with some pretty creative excuses to sue if they bother to do so... usually they just threaten to and expect people to blink.

As long as a 3rd party doesn't call them "Blood Bowl" figures, or use specific GW names (Skaven, Griff Oberwald etc) then there's nothing GW can do to stop them, and after the Chapterhouse ruling I expect they don't want to try.

Unless they have "Skaven" and "Griff Oberwald" trademarked then even those are up for grabs. Specific characters might be cutting it close (not technically illegal, but skirting close to giving them an excuse) while race names that haven't actually been trademarked will not be a problem.

Certainly it's only rational for anyone who plans to use terms originating from another company to run trademark searches on those terms before they use them. Last time I checked I couldn't find any on BB race names or star player names in the UK or USA, and those would be the big two they'd want them in.

[Milo]

OTOH, if they drastically change the rules AND start trying to put 3rd party manufacturers out of business with legal shenanigans, I'll never buy from GW again. (They can and should try to put 3rd party manufacturers out of business by offering better minis at better prices.)

Perhaps fat on the fire, but GW have every right to take companies, or people to court, if they were stealing their IP. If doing so puts companies out of business then that's the fault of the company (not GW). If the court makes a legal ruling, then that's right, fair and proper. If I go out and punch someone in the face, that's my fault, I caused that to happen, and if I take a right beating because of it, should I get sympathy?

You then mention that GW "should try to put 3rd party manufacturers out of business by offering better minis at better prices." What if they cannot. Various companies could operate on a minimal profit, which a large company just couldn't. In fact, a small company, or fan making his own could actually operate on no profit at all, or even on a loss. Are GW to offer their products at no profit, or a loss as well? A lot of people are selling a product, with the purpose being for Bloodbowl, but when they cross a line, then the law is clear on that.

Certainly, they have LEGAL rights to take companies and people to court. But let's be frank here: GW abandoned Blood Bowl and refused to sell any products for it. The game was popular enough that a demand existed for new BB minis and accessories, and other companies have filled that void. I'm not going to feel sympathy for GW's self-inflicted injury.

In the court of public opinion, I think GW going after the companies that have helped keep the Blood Bowl community around would be bad business. I have the right to spend my money however I choose, and I (and I suspect others) would not choose to support GW if they start launching this type of legal attack. Your analogy of punching someone in the face involves an INJURY to another party, but how could GW have been injured when they weren't participating in this retail space in the first place?

Secondly, larger companies have a better economy of scale that generally means they can hit lower price points. GW has the ability to sculpt and mold quality PLASTIC figures which are generally much cheaper than even resin. They also have the advantage of a much bigger bullhorn when it comes to advertising their products, and the supply chains to deliver them to retail stores and the like. I'm not sure where you think the system favors smaller companies, except maybe in turnaround time from design to fulfillment. And GW could definitely operate on a minimal profit line better than a smaller company, because they have other product lines and wouldn't be depending on Blood Bowl mini sales to keep the company alive.

Just really not sure where you are going with all of these arguments, nor the emotion levels you are devoting to them. Did I kick your puppy when I wasn't looking?

[rolo]

You then mention that GW "should try to put 3rd party manufacturers out of business by offering better minis at better prices." What if they cannot. Various companies could operate on a minimal profit, which a large company just couldn't. In fact, a small company, or fan making his own could actually operate on no profit at all, or even on a loss. Are GW to offer their products at no profit, or a loss as well? A lot of people are selling a product, with the purpose being for Bloodbowl, but when they cross a line, then the law is clear on that.

If somebody else can make a better product at a lower price, they should and will get my money. That's how free markets work.

[Milo]

You then mention that GW "should try to put 3rd party manufacturers out of business by offering better minis at better prices." What if they cannot. Various companies could operate on a minimal profit, which a large company just couldn't. In fact, a small company, or fan making his own could actually operate on no profit at all, or even on a loss. Are GW to offer their products at no profit, or a loss as well? A lot of people are selling a product, with the purpose being for Bloodbowl, but when they cross a line, then the law is clear on that.

If somebody else can make a better product at a lower price, they should and will get my money. That's how free markets work.

Yes, that's precisely what I meant. Win via competition, not legal bludgeoning.

[Deus Magi]

As long as a 3rd party doesn't call them "Blood Bowl" figures, or use specific GW names (Skaven, Griff Oberwald etc) then there's nothing GW can do to stop them, and after the Chapterhouse ruling I expect they don't want to try.
What they can do is put out product of such high quality that the 3rd parties can't compete, which is what I believe Milo means.
But if they make product which is more expensive and/or of lower quality compared to what 3rd parties are doing then people will continue to buy elsewhere.

It doesn't matter how high quality the product, or no matter how good, various people will go for the cheaper option, or because they prefer that, item, or wish to support that other company. Plus that item could well be more expensive due to the staff that those other small companies may not have. That's less margin for that smaller company, that may not be interested in profit at all. Plus that other company does not have to create the game itself. They can just feed off that.

Perhaps fat on the fire, but GW have every right to take companies, or people to court, if they were stealing their IP.

People like to toss around the term IP but there are very specific rights that exist, and very specific limits on those rights. Making 3rd party minis for games doesn't violate any of those unless those minis are close copies of existing minis. In fact, you could publish a game using exactly the same rules and it wouldn't violate any of them either.

Now, that doesn't mean they can't sue you anyway, or that they can try to make a shaky case that what you're doing is somehow unfair business practices, but that sort of lawsuit isn't usually launched with the idea that they'll win... rather that you'll back down because it's a knife fight using your bank accounts as weapons.

Very fair points about IP. A knife fight? Well any business, has a right to go to court, and they've exercised that right. I do believe though that any business can go to court with regard to if their business has been damaged. I believe financially, or in any way, and seek recompense. Hard to prove I believe, but it's one way that the legal process can start. If the other company has the law on their side, and is right in what they are doing, which goes with what you say, then they don't need expensive legal advice, they could stand in court and represent themselves. then would it come down to bank accounts. for the decision, with the law, is taken by the presiding judge who is incredibly educated, and must understand any spurious claims.

A lot of people are selling a product, with the purpose being for Bloodbowl, but when they cross a line, then the law is clear on that.

It's actually not very clear at all. In most of the western world there are no laws that specifically protect GW's interests in these cases... so they have to come up with some pretty creative excuses to sue if they bother to do so... usually they just threaten to and expect people to blink.

There must be a point where it does cross the line, where ever that is.

As long as a 3rd party doesn't call them "Blood Bowl" figures, or use specific GW names (Skaven, Griff Oberwald etc) then there's nothing GW can do to stop them, and after the Chapterhouse ruling I expect they don't want to try.

Unless they have "Skaven" and "Griff Oberwald" trademarked then even those are up for grabs. Specific characters might be cutting it close (not technically illegal, but skirting close to giving them an excuse) while race names that haven't actually been trademarked will not be a problem.

Certainly it's only rational for anyone who plans to use terms originating from another company to run trademark searches on those terms before they use them. Last time I checked I couldn't find any on BB race names or star player names in the UK or USA, and those would be the big two they'd want them in.

I'm sure you have a better understanding that I do, but the legal process is there for those who feel that they have been wronged. I just feel that those other companies are leeching off someone else's hard work and efforts.

Certainly, they have LEGAL rights to take companies and people to court. But let's be frank here: GW abandoned Blood Bowl and refused to sell any products for it.

Which is rightfully well within GW rights, should be their choice, and their choice alone to make if they wish to. You cannot justify an action by saying that someone else did not do as you expected or wished. Especially if that is their fair a free choice to do so and well within the law.

The game was popular enough that a demand existed for new BB minis and accessories, and other companies have filled that void. I'm not going to feel sympathy for GW's self-inflicted injury.

It was their choice, and should be respected as such. Otherwise I could say to someone, "drive me home, now! I'll pay you fairly, but drop what you are doing." It would be selfish of to have the expectant I want this, to then be unhappy when it does not present itself. Perhaps that person has other things that they wish to attend to? Am I to then think, you know what, just because of your choice not to, I'll take your car anyway, that was your fault, you caused this to happen, and now that's your loss. that's just not fair on the car driver, in the same way that someone may take an expensive car that they cannot afford, and look upon it as "they can afford it, they've got loads."

I don't agree with it, in the same way that I don't agree with the fakers selling GW miniatures on e-Bay. GW don't sell those old miniatures anymore, and could run a company that did, because there is minimal demand for them. but that demand will pay a small company / individual a substantial amount of money each month. A VERY comfortable living, but GW could not possibly stock all their old items. that would be hundred? of thousands of lines, the space alone would be enormous. to go back to the little company that you mention, they can just pick away at the occasional line, but for GW to compete (with their own product, that they designed, created and made) they would have to stock it all. that's just not possible. The fakers attitude is "well GW don't produce them anymore, and people want them." but those fakers don't say to the customer that they are selling fakes. Instead they'll lie through their teeth to get that money off them, and in turn rip off those people. those people are honestly buying what they believe is an item from their youth that is no longer produced, but was likely made yesterday. A separate point, but it does lead to the points you make and the questions that you ask of me.

In the court of public opinion, I think GW going after the companies that have helped keep the Blood Bowl community around would be bad business.

This court is usually linked to what people term as morals. but it all comes down to the section of the public that the opinions come from. I'm not denigrating anyone here, but if you take a specific group, then that opinion can be swayed. Fro what is legally or orally right. If I went to a load of drug dealers, and asked them their morals encompassed, then I'd get some interesting answers. their public opinion would also be differing from mine, and many in society. In the same way, could again lead a certain way. that way may not be strictly, lawful, moral, or right, but that person would feel that way, as would their friends or peer group.

I have the right to spend my money however I choose, and I (and I suspect others) would not choose to support GW if they start launching this type of legal attack. Your analogy of punching someone in the face involves an INJURY to another party, but how could GW have been injured when they weren't participating in this retail space in the first place?

The analogy was regards injury, and a business IS injured if they lose financially. To answer your question, Other businesses operating in such manner, could well stop GW from re-entering the market space at all. If they were to (and they have) then it would well injure them from financial loss of less products sold when they do, as others will continue to market, and having actually marketed already, stopped an amount of investment from people who have brought the other companies product. The "Hmnnn I've got Gribly's Orcs that they did, the Gnomics Punkvars and the Royal Naval studios Ogirs. I'll just pick up the GW Dwarfs" some people will buy the same team again, but realistically, if I talk to my gaming club, people won't be doing that often. That is a loss to GW. those other companies may also stop future designs of products and any associated investment in the game, art and associated literature. Which could well be a loss to the fans.

Secondly, larger companies have a better economy of scale that generally means they can hit lower price points. GW has the ability to sculpt and mold quality PLASTIC figures which are generally much cheaper than even resin. They also have the advantage of a much bigger bullhorn when it comes to advertising their products, and the supply chains to deliver them to retail stores and the like. I'm not sure where you think the system favors smaller companies, except maybe in turnaround time from design to fulfillment. And GW could definitely operate on a minimal profit line better than a smaller company, because they have other product lines and wouldn't be depending on Blood Bowl mini sales to keep the company alive.

As I mentioned earlier, the smaller company may well operate on no profit at all, and various companies may well avoid paying VAT or tax, thus has that advantage as well. Although some large companies have a coffee and a Giigle over tax havens, I believe GW pay their bills with regards to that. A small company doesn't have to, or could just declare bankruptcy, and then spring up again the next day. There are various advantages to the small company. If there are many of them, then they will detract from GW's profit, and that is damaging to GW. They can get to market quicker, you are right, and that is another thing that will knock the market interest if they get it out their quicker. With regards to advertising and supply chains, well Kickstarters and social media and web sites like this appear to negate that to a noticeable extent.

Just really not sure where you are going with all of these arguments, nor the emotion levels you are devoting to them. Did I kick your puppy when I wasn't looking?

If I had a puppy, he's hurt. The emotion levels? Well perhaps my punched in the face analogy was emotive, I could have phrased this differently to instill the same point. I meant nothing personal by it, it was just quick and easy to say that, rather than talk of finances etc.

You then mention that GW "should try to put 3rd party manufacturers out of business by offering better minis at better prices." What if they cannot. Various companies could operate on a minimal profit, which a large company just couldn't. In fact, a small company, or fan making his own could actually operate on no profit at all, or even on a loss. Are GW to offer their products at no profit, or a loss as well? A lot of people are selling a product, with the purpose being for Bloodbowl, but when they cross a line, then the law is clear on that.

If somebody else can make a better product at a lower price, they should and will get my money. That's how free markets work.

it is your choice, as in anyone's, to spend how they wish. It is a free market, but some companies, as I mention, have advantages. Free meaning exempt from restriction, and a free market is designed to be within the law, thus free and fair. which comes round to the legal aspect, morals and what is right.

You then mention that GW "should try to put 3rd party manufacturers out of business by offering better minis at better prices." What if they cannot. Various companies could operate on a minimal profit, which a large company just couldn't. In fact, a small company, or fan making his own could actually operate on no profit at all, or even on a loss. Are GW to offer their products at no profit, or a loss as well? A lot of people are selling a product, with the purpose being for Bloodbowl, but when they cross a line, then the law is clear on that.

If somebody else can make a better product at a lower price, they should and will get my money. That's how free markets work.

Yes, that's precisely what I meant. Win via competition, not legal bludgeoning.

Most companies do find it hard to win via competition, as there are always those that act unfairly, due to the reasons I mention above, but perhaps we can agree to disagree, and leave it thus?

Sorry to go on, but I feel it fair if someone asks, or takes time to write, then it is only fair for me to take time to reply.

[Darkson]

If the other company has the law on their side, and is right in what they are doing, which goes with what you say, then they don't need expensive legal advice, they could stand in court and represent themselves. then would it come down to bank accounts. for the decision, with the law, is taken by the presiding judge who is incredibly educated, and must understand any spurious claims.

You've obviously not followed the many, many IP claims that GW have put out then (GW are not alone in this, just they're the only one I'm bothered about here). They have "bullied" many people, both as individuals and companies, not because they're in the right in the Law, but because they have (had) the money to "lawyer up" which others couldn't (or wouldn't). It took Chapter House getting a lawyer working "pro bono" for them to fight GW in the courts in the US, and GW got a bit of a kicking, but even that nearly killed CH off (they had their bank accounts and stock frozen for a time, which is not good for a small independent business).

Being on the right side of the law doesn't help if you can't afford to fight. Thinking otherwise is pretty naive.