The job to rewrite the rulebook has been posted

[Deus Magi]

I'm aware of the CH court battle. I didn't know it was pro-bono though. The judge makes rulings on information put forward. Naïve of me, maybe, but everyone has the right to represent themselves in court, and leeway is usually given in the understanding that their knowledge of the law is not as full as a paid for professional representative. I'm sure there are ways to drag it out though, causing pain to such companies. But personally, from my moral lookout, as a seller myself (micro scale), I would not step on someone's toes. I'd like to sell brand new GW product, and other companies as well. But I can't as I don't have a bricks and mortar shop. I respect that, that is their wish. I can evade it easily, but do not, as for me that's wrong. Not because they are the big guys, but because I respect their wishes. In the same way, I would bring out my own product, that trod on the toes of someone else. I don't feel it's right to, others do. I did hear that GW lost the CH case, because they made their case too open ended and far reaching. But, that's just what I heard and I haven't looked too deeply, as else I'll never get anything done.

[Darkson]

Do GW own "orc", "elf", "dwarf"? No, they've copied them from others (folk lore).
Did they invent the idea of football involving fantasy races? No: Monsters of the Midway
Do GW try to claim things they didn't invent? Spot the Space Marine

So unless a 3rd party is selling models for "Blood Bowl" and/or using GW TM terms such as "skaven" (and as VMike pointed out, they don't seem to have specific races listed as TM on their site anymore) then they're doing nothing wrong.

[Deus Magi]

Then that, as I mentioned, comes down to the courts, or in the main case you mention, the ISP holder. GW, as does everyone, have the right to say "Oi!" if someone steps in their backyard. It is for the courts to decide if it is actually their backyard, or if wrong has been done. Personally, I just wouldn't do that, it's my nature. I'd ring the doorbell, and if there was no answer, I'd walk away.

[rolo]

... everyone has the right to represent themselves in court, and leeway is usually given in the understanding that their knowledge of the law is not as full as a paid for professional representative.

People also have the right to perform surgery on themselves when they're sick. I'm not sure which is a dumber idea.

[Deus Magi]

Various people have done so to survive, there are people who have amputated limbs or they would have died. I don't doubt a wise choice at the time.

[rolo]

... which is about as risky as representing yourself in court without a lawyer

Anyway, I think we're moving away from the main point of this thread. The point I've been trying to make is that I owe GW nothing; they're releasing a new Blood Bowl boxed set and, if it's good enough on its own, I'll buy it. If they don't make something I want, I will not, and I will continue buying teams and fields from manufacturers who make stuff that I like. (One of the things I like is high-quality teams in 28mm scale! I just dropped 80 Euros yesterday on a team of frogmen).

Moreover, I don't see competition as some kind of underhanded theft from GW. If they don't bother to do market research and find out what their customers want, they have only themselves to blame if people who could have been their customers buy somewhere else.

[Deus Magi]

If they don't bother to do market research and find out what their customers want, they have only themselves to blame

Which goes back to the car. Perhaps you didn't drive it yesterday, you just parked it there, your choice to. I'm not going to take it, but others would.

But as you say, it has led away from the thread.

[Darkson]

If they don't bother to do market research and find out what their customers want, they have only themselves to blame

Which goes back to the car. Perhaps you didn't drive it yesterday, you just parked it there, your choice to. I'm not going to take it, but others would.

No it doesn't, that's an awful analogy.
It's more like I used your bus last week, you then locked in your garage, so I took someone else's bus. Just because you've now unlocked your bus doesn't mean I have to use it (which is still an awful analogy, but a lot closer than yours).

[VoodooMike]

Very fair points about IP. A knife fight? Well any business, has a right to go to court, and they've exercised that right. I do believe though that any business can go to court with regard to if their business has been damaged. I believe financially, or in any way, and seek recompense. Hard to prove I believe, but it's one way that the legal process can start. If the other company has the law on their side, and is right in what they are doing, which goes with what you say, then they don't need expensive legal advice, they could stand in court and represent themselves. then would it come down to bank accounts. for the decision, with the law, is taken by the presiding judge who is incredibly educated, and must understand any spurious claims.

Even with civil court you need to have a well-established cause for suing someone.. you can't just sue them saying "I don't like them so make them pay me money". For copyright and trademark (the two IP rights that GW may have over aspects of their games) there is an absolute wall of precedent for most minor things, making such cases easy to resolve in most cases.

When we're talking about Blood Bowl, almost everything is already covered by established precedent.. and that precedent says GW will lose any lawsuit they launch against 3rd party vendors in almost every case. They can still sue, of course, knowing that they'd lose in the end.. because they have more money and the target of the lawsuit will still have to shell out tens of thousands of dollars to fight the fight, and even when the target wins, they can't get that money back without proving the lawsuit was maliciously done just to cost them money (which is nigh-impossible to prove).

Even if you represent yourself you'll need lawyers to write up most of your documents unless you really want to piss the court off. There are still plenty of costs, and you'll be spending a crap-ton of time on your case even when not required to be in court for it. I speak from experience!

There must be a point where it does cross the line, where ever that is.

The point where it crosses the line is the point where an action someone takes is clearly covered by precedent in a case where the plaintiff won. Then you start the second part of your decision making: you see if they're losing you enough money to make suing them worth it, and if they have enough money that when you're awarded damages you have any hope of ever seeing those damages paid to you. Often they're just numbers on a page forever.

I'm sure you have a better understanding that I do, but the legal process is there for those who feel that they have been wronged. I just feel that those other companies are leeching off someone else's hard work and efforts.

Yeah, the world isn't fair. That sounds glib, but it's exactly the truth. Courts are very peripherally about making sure society works according to some sort of "right and wrong" principle, but in reality civil court is mostly about who hates who more, and how much money they're willing to put into hurting them. Sometimes civil court is about stealing money from someone else, but just as often its just about inflicting some bruises.

Which is rightfully well within GW rights, should be their choice, and their choice alone to make if they wish to. You cannot justify an action by saying that someone else did not do as you expected or wished. Especially if that is their fair a free choice to do so and well within the law.

You're right that abandoning the game doesn't make it any less theirs. However, the idea of making minis for use in BB, or publishing the rules to BB without GW's permission so long as you rewrite them such that they're all clearly in your own words, etc... none of that violates any legitimate legal rights GW has to BB. At best they could try for something nebulous like "unfair business practices", but that's when their abandonment of the game WOULD come in - it's hard to claim someone is trying to steal your sales when you don't actually sell the product...

The analogy was regards injury, and a business IS injured if they lose financially.

Only if they suffer financial loss as a result of illegal actions by another. Being outcompeted results in a financial loss, too... but you can't win a court case against your competitor claiming you're annoyed they stole your market share... not unless they broke the law to do so.

It is a free market, but some companies, as I mention, have advantages. Free meaning exempt from restriction, and a free market is designed to be within the law, thus free and fair. which comes round to the legal aspect, morals and what is right.

That's adorable! While we all wish it were about what's right and what's moral, it very rarely is. Law is, at its core, mind-bendingly complex sophistry. Sophistry is a skill, and some people are much better at it than others..

[Milo]

Certainly, they have LEGAL rights to take companies and people to court. But let's be frank here: GW abandoned Blood Bowl and refused to sell any products for it.

Which is rightfully well within GW rights, should be their choice, and their choice alone to make if they wish to. You cannot justify an action by saying that someone else did not do as you expected or wished. Especially if that is their fair a free choice to do so and well within the law.

GW certainly does have the right to stop selling Blood Bowl products. That, however, does not require everyone to turn over their Blood Bowl merchandise and never play again. And if there is demand for an item, someone will step in to supply it. There is a demand for "fantasy football" miniatures, and so numerous people have produced that product. I have seen nowhere that a set of miniatures, sculpted by someone outside GW, violates any sort of intellectual property.

The game was popular enough that a demand existed for new BB minis and accessories, and other companies have filled that void. I'm not going to feel sympathy for GW's self-inflicted injury.

It was their choice, and should be respected as such. Otherwise I could say to someone, "drive me home, now! I'll pay you fairly, but drop what you are doing." It would be selfish of to have the expectant I want this, to then be unhappy when it does not present itself. Perhaps that person has other things that they wish to attend to? Am I to then think, you know what, just because of your choice not to, I'll take your car anyway, that was your fault, you caused this to happen, and now that's your loss. that's just not fair on the car driver, in the same way that someone may take an expensive car that they cannot afford, and look upon it as "they can afford it, they've got loads."

Your analogy makes no sense. First of all, I respect their right to stop selling Blood Bowl. I think it's foolish, but I respect it. But that doesn't mean I'm going to stop playing it, and if I want more minis and GW is unwilling to supply them, I'll look elsewhere. I'm not stealing someone's car or punching someone in the face. It's equivalent to Coca Cola taking my favorite soft drink off the shelf -- they won't be getting my money anymore, but that doesn't mean I'm just going to stop drinking soda, I'll just find a different brand I like.

I don't agree with it, in the same way that I don't agree with the fakers selling GW miniatures on e-Bay. GW don't sell those old miniatures anymore, and could run a company that did, because there is minimal demand for them.

That is an entirely different story. Someone taking GW minis, making copies of them, and then selling the copies IS theft. It is illegal because the designs of those miniatures are GW's intellectual property. They paid someone to design them, they own exclusive rights to sell those designs.

That's not what third party manufacturers are doing.

but that demand will pay a small company / individual a substantial amount of money each month. A VERY comfortable living, but GW could not possibly stock all their old items. that would be hundred? of thousands of lines, the space alone would be enormous. to go back to the little company that you mention, they can just pick away at the occasional line, but for GW to compete (with their own product, that they designed, created and made) they would have to stock it all. that's just not possible. The fakers attitude is "well GW don't produce them anymore, and people want them." but those fakers don't say to the customer that they are selling fakes. Instead they'll lie through their teeth to get that money off them, and in turn rip off those people. those people are honestly buying what they believe is an item from their youth that is no longer produced, but was likely made yesterday. A separate point, but it does lead to the points you make and the questions that you ask of me.

Again, recasting minis and selling them as the originals IS ILLEGAL. No one is debating that. But if Acme, Inc. pays a talented sculptor to make designs of elves playing football, that is Acme, Inc.'s intellectual property, not GW's. GW has no right to their designs.

I haven't seen any third party manufacturer saying their miniatures are official GW miniatures.

In the court of public opinion, I think GW going after the companies that have helped keep the Blood Bowl community around would be bad business.

This court is usually linked to what people term as morals. but it all comes down to the section of the public that the opinions come from. I'm not denigrating anyone here, but if you take a specific group, then that opinion can be swayed. Fro what is legally or orally right. If I went to a load of drug dealers, and asked them their morals encompassed, then I'd get some interesting answers. their public opinion would also be differing from mine, and many in society. In the same way, could again lead a certain way. that way may not be strictly, lawful, moral, or right, but that person would feel that way, as would their friends or peer group.

Seriously? You're justifying this by bringing drug dealers into the picture? Here are the facts:

1) GW made a very popular game.
2) GW then stopped selling that game and all accessories associated with it.
3) Other companies started selling products that are compatible with the FREELY AVAILABLE ruleset. (Note: GW chose to make the rules freely available.)
4) Blood Bowl players, myself included, are very grateful to other companies who have chosen to support the game we love.
5) When GW re-releases Blood Bowl, many of those Blood Bowl players will resume purchasing from GW -- perhaps not exclusively, but if GW makes quality product, it will be bought.

Frankly, I don't think it's in GW's best interest to alienate potential customers by attacking the companies that filled the void they left behind.

I have the right to spend my money however I choose, and I (and I suspect others) would not choose to support GW if they start launching this type of legal attack. Your analogy of punching someone in the face involves an INJURY to another party, but how could GW have been injured when they weren't participating in this retail space in the first place?

The analogy was regards injury, and a business IS injured if they lose financially. To answer your question, Other businesses operating in such manner, could well stop GW from re-entering the market space at all. If they were to (and they have) then it would well injure them from financial loss of less products sold when they do, as others will continue to market, and having actually marketed already, stopped an amount of investment from people who have brought the other companies product. The "Hmnnn I've got Gribly's Orcs that they did, the Gnomics Punkvars and the Royal Naval studios Ogirs. I'll just pick up the GW Dwarfs" some people will buy the same team again, but realistically, if I talk to my gaming club, people won't be doing that often. That is a loss to GW. those other companies may also stop future designs of products and any associated investment in the game, art and associated literature. Which could well be a loss to the fans.

This involves a TON of hypotheticals. First of all, it CLEARLY hasn't stopped GW from re-entering the retail space, as they are set to release a new copy of the game and new minis later this year. And I could counter by saying that if no new miniatures were produced for Blood Bowl, it would have become increasingly difficult to recruit any new players to the game with only second-hand sales of miniatures to enable new teams. Without those new players, GW might not have an existing thriving market to sell to.

Secondly, larger companies have a better economy of scale that generally means they can hit lower price points. GW has the ability to sculpt and mold quality PLASTIC figures which are generally much cheaper than even resin. They also have the advantage of a much bigger bullhorn when it comes to advertising their products, and the supply chains to deliver them to retail stores and the like. I'm not sure where you think the system favors smaller companies, except maybe in turnaround time from design to fulfillment. And GW could definitely operate on a minimal profit line better than a smaller company, because they have other product lines and wouldn't be depending on Blood Bowl mini sales to keep the company alive.

As I mentioned earlier, the smaller company may well operate on no profit at all, and various companies may well avoid paying VAT or tax, thus has that advantage as well. Although some large companies have a coffee and a Giigle over tax havens, I believe GW pay their bills with regards to that. A small company doesn't have to, or could just declare bankruptcy, and then spring up again the next day. There are various advantages to the small company. If there are many of them, then they will detract from GW's profit, and that is damaging to GW. They can get to market quicker, you are right, and that is another thing that will knock the market interest if they get it out their quicker. With regards to advertising and supply chains, well Kickstarters and social media and web sites like this appear to negate that to a noticeable extent.

I'm sorry, you just lose all credibility with me when you say a small company may operate on no profit at all. Maybe if they have a billionaire angel investor -- but that frankly just doesn't happen in the niche hobby sector. A small company has NO ability to absorb things like delays in production, etc. Small companies generally cannot afford to operate at a break-even or loss level, because they do not have the capital to keep the lights on.

If the small companies have so many advantages, that explains why Microsoft didn't come to dominate the software market, right?

[ramchop]

3) Other companies started selling products that are compatible with the FREELY AVAILABLE ruleset. (Note: GW chose to make the rules freely available.)

It seems this may have changed.

[Milo]

3) Other companies started selling products that are compatible with the FREELY AVAILABLE ruleset. (Note: GW chose to make the rules freely available.)

It seems this may have changed.

Well, not really. Once you put something out on the internet, you can't ever really remove it. But GW could CHANGE the rulebook and not release the new version.

[Regash]

There is a company called HAMA, selling all kinds of cables and accessories for electronics like iPhone chargers and what have you.
Noone ever sued them for selling stuff that the original companies would rather sell themselves. Why?
Because they develop and produce them by themselves, not calling them "iPhone charger" but "smart phone charger suitable for iPhones".
Noone can forbid them to do that, it's their own product and they sell it.

Or think about companies making spare parts for cars. Almost everything can be bought, from batteries, brakes and cables to hoses and what not, without them being original parts from the cars manufacturer.

And that is exactly what 3rd party miniature companies do: They design, sculpt and cast miniatures "suitable for Blood Bowl". And they don't even mention Blood Bowl and call it "Fantasy Football".
I can't see anything illegal in it.

The only thing GW can do is ban miniatures not manufactured by GW from any event GW themselves organizes. But they could also ban you for wearing jeans and sneakers like some discos do. Their event, their house, their rules. But that is about it.

[Heff]

... everyone has the right to represent themselves in court, and leeway is usually given in the understanding that their knowledge of the law is not as full as a paid for professional representative.

People also have the right to perform surgery on themselves when they're sick. I'm not sure which is a dumber idea.

The famous dictum is that the person who chooses to represent themselves in Court is acting for a fool.

[Deus Magi]

If they don't bother to do market research and find out what their customers want, they have only themselves to blame

Which goes back to the car. Perhaps you didn't drive it yesterday, you just parked it there, your choice to. I'm not going to take it, but others would.

No it doesn't, that's an awful analogy.
It's more like I used your bus last week, you then locked in your garage, so I took someone else's bus. Just because you've now unlocked your bus doesn't mean I have to use it (which is still an awful analogy, but a lot closer than yours).

I'll have to make this brief. I just wrote out replies to most of you, that took me an hour and 45 minutes, to then preview it, and the page fart back at me. Good responses to the relevant points you all made. Very disappointing.

Anyway, in brief. I was referring to the attitude of that's their fault, they did that, stopped selling, so there you go. I'm going to do this because you haven't done that. I see that as wrong, and if GW are unhappy with what occurs due to that, then fair play to them.

VoodooMike. "Adorable?" A little patronising, something said to a small child, but I take no issue with it. Thank you for a full well put response. You have a better understanding of law than I, and sorry for your "experience." Clearly not pleasant. I do feel that GW have the right to go after people if they feel affronted, if the courts allow the way they play, then so be it. If someone trod on what I felt were my toes, I'd say, "excuse me." If they continued, then if they fell foul in court, so be it.

Certainly, they have LEGAL rights to take companies and people to court. But let's be frank here: GW abandoned Blood Bowl and refused to sell any products for it.

Which is rightfully well within GW rights, should be their choice, and their choice alone to make if they wish to. You cannot justify an action by saying that someone else did not do as you expected or wished. Especially if that is their fair a free choice to do so and well within the law.

GW certainly does have the right to stop selling Blood Bowl products. That, however, does not require everyone to turn over their Blood Bowl merchandise and never play again. And if there is demand for an item, someone will step in to supply it. There is a demand for "fantasy football" miniatures, and so numerous people have produced that product. I have seen nowhere that a set of miniatures, sculpted by someone outside GW, violates any sort of intellectual property.

I never asked anyone to turn over all BB products or to stop playing. I was referring to the attitude. I'm going to have it, no matter what. I too have not seen that a set of miniatures, sculpted by someone outside GW, violates any sort of intellectual property.

The game was popular enough that a demand existed for new BB minis and accessories, and other companies have filled that void. I'm not going to feel sympathy for GW's self-inflicted injury.

It was their choice, and should be respected as such. Otherwise I could say to someone, "drive me home, now! I'll pay you fairly, but drop what you are doing." It would be selfish of to have the expectant I want this, to then be unhappy when it does not present itself. Perhaps that person has other things that they wish to attend to? Am I to then think, you know what, just because of your choice not to, I'll take your car anyway, that was your fault, you caused this to happen, and now that's your loss. that's just not fair on the car driver, in the same way that someone may take an expensive car that they cannot afford, and look upon it as "they can afford it, they've got loads."

Your analogy makes no sense. First of all, I respect their right to stop selling Blood Bowl. I think it's foolish, but I respect it. But that doesn't mean I'm going to stop playing it, and if I want more minis and GW is unwilling to supply them, I'll look elsewhere. I'm not stealing someone's car or punching someone in the face. It's equivalent to Coca Cola taking my favorite soft drink off the shelf -- they won't be getting my money anymore, but that doesn't mean I'm just going to stop drinking soda, I'll just find a different brand I like.

I never said you were stealing a car or punching someone in the face, I used those to show the attitude of some one having what they want, n matter what, and no matter any concern for whos yard the cars parked in.

I don't agree with it, in the same way that I don't agree with the fakers selling GW miniatures on e-Bay. GW don't sell those old miniatures anymore, and could run a company that did, because there is minimal demand for them.

That is an entirely different story. Someone taking GW minis, making copies of them, and then selling the copies IS theft. It is illegal because the designs of those miniatures are GW's intellectual property. They paid someone to design them, they own exclusive rights to sell those designs.

That's not what third party manufacturers are doing.

Correct as I said “ A separate point, but it does lead to the points you make and the questions that you ask of me.” This was said in regards to GW not producing lines and discontinuing them. They cannot compete with that small company, or person making them. They never will be able to. A larger company just cannot. They tried to with the Collectors series. If they cannot survive on BB, then GW has to invest resources elsewhere, and GW did.

but that demand will pay a small company / individual a substantial amount of money each month. A VERY comfortable living, but GW could not possibly stock all their old items. that would be hundred? of thousands of lines, the space alone would be enormous. to go back to the little company that you mention, they can just pick away at the occasional line, but for GW to compete (with their own product, that they designed, created and made) they would have to stock it all. that's just not possible. The fakers attitude is "well GW don't produce them anymore, and people want them." but those fakers don't say to the customer that they are selling fakes. Instead they'll lie through their teeth to get that money off them, and in turn rip off those people. those people are honestly buying what they believe is an item from their youth that is no longer produced, but was likely made yesterday. A separate point, but it does lead to the points you make and the questions that you ask of me.

Again, recasting minis and selling them as the originals IS ILLEGAL. No one is debating that. But if Acme, Inc. pays a talented sculptor to make designs of elves playing football, that is Acme, Inc.'s intellectual property, not GW's. GW has no right to their designs.

I haven't seen any third party manufacturer saying their miniatures are official GW miniatures.

Correct.

In the court of public opinion, I think GW going after the companies that have helped keep the Blood Bowl community around would be bad business.

This court is usually linked to what people term as morals. but it all comes down to the section of the public that the opinions come from. I'm not denigrating anyone here, but if you take a specific group, then that opinion can be swayed. Fro what is legally or orally right. If I went to a load of drug dealers, and asked them their morals encompassed, then I'd get some interesting answers. their public opinion would also be differing from mine, and many in society. In the same way, could again lead a certain way. that way may not be strictly, lawful, moral, or right, but that person would feel that way, as would their friends or peer group.

Seriously? You're justifying this by bringing drug dealers into the picture? Here are the facts:

1) GW made a very popular game.
2) GW then stopped selling that game and all accessories associated with it.
3) Other companies started selling products that are compatible with the FREELY AVAILABLE ruleset. (Note: GW chose to make the rules freely available.)
4) Blood Bowl players, myself included, are very grateful to other companies who have chosen to support the game we love.
5) When GW re-releases Blood Bowl, many of those Blood Bowl players will resume purchasing from GW -- perhaps not exclusively, but if GW makes quality product, it will be bought.

Frankly, I don't think it's in GW's best interest to alienate potential customers by attacking the companies that filled the void they left behind.

I used the Druggie as an analogy of a demographic. If someone wants something, then many do not care where it comes from, or think to. The demographic here is “GW's fault, tough!” But if GW could not continue as a business on information it had at the time, and chose to invest resources elsewhere, no one should feel affronted by that. For someone offers me an apple one day, has apples the next, but makes no offer, I do not get upset. Many have, for that alone.

I have the right to spend my money however I choose, and I (and I suspect others) would not choose to support GW if they start launching this type of legal attack. Your analogy of punching someone in the face involves an INJURY to another party, but how could GW have been injured when they weren't participating in this retail space in the first place?

The analogy was regards injury, and a business IS injured if they lose financially. To answer your question, Other businesses operating in such manner, could well stop GW from re-entering the market space at all. If they were to (and they have) then it would well injure them from financial loss of less products sold when they do, as others will continue to market, and having actually marketed already, stopped an amount of investment from people who have brought the other companies product. The "Hmnnn I've got Gribly's Orcs that they did, the Gnomics Punkvars and the Royal Naval studios Ogirs. I'll just pick up the GW Dwarfs" some people will buy the same team again, but realistically, if I talk to my gaming club, people won't be doing that often. That is a loss to GW. those other companies may also stop future designs of products and any associated investment in the game, art and associated literature. Which could well be a loss to the fans.

This involves a TON of hypotheticals. First of all, it CLEARLY hasn't stopped GW from re-entering the retail space, as they are set to release a new copy of the game and new minis later this year. And I could counter by saying that if no new miniatures were produced for Blood Bowl, it would have become increasingly difficult to recruit any new players to the game with only second-hand sales of miniatures to enable new teams. Without those new players, GW might not have an existing thriving market to sell to.

Hypotheticals? I'd make decisions based on that. I believe people will buy less if other products are out there, and due to other products already sold to customers. I don't feel that recruiting players, with the GW shops that are designed just for that, would be an issue. If no existing players? Then they could create the market.

Secondly, larger companies have a better economy of scale that generally means they can hit lower price points. GW has the ability to sculpt and mold quality PLASTIC figures which are generally much cheaper than even resin. They also have the advantage of a much bigger bullhorn when it comes to advertising their products, and the supply chains to deliver them to retail stores and the like. I'm not sure where you think the system favors smaller companies, except maybe in turnaround time from design to fulfillment. And GW could definitely operate on a minimal profit line better than a smaller company, because they have other product lines and wouldn't be depending on Blood Bowl mini sales to keep the company alive.

As I mentioned earlier, the smaller company may well operate on no profit at all, and various companies may well avoid paying VAT or tax, thus has that advantage as well. Although some large companies have a coffee and a Giigle over tax havens, I believe GW pay their bills with regards to that. A small company doesn't have to, or could just declare bankruptcy, and then spring up again the next day. There are various advantages to the small company. If there are many of them, then they will detract from GW's profit, and that is damaging to GW. They can get to market quicker, you are right, and that is another thing that will knock the market interest if they get it out their quicker. With regards to advertising and supply chains, well Kickstarters and social media and web sites like this appear to negate that to a noticeable extent.

I'm sorry, you just lose all credibility with me when you say a small company may operate on no profit at all. Maybe if they have a billionaire angel investor -- but that frankly just doesn't happen in the niche hobby sector. A small company has NO ability to absorb things like delays in production, etc. Small companies generally cannot afford to operate at a break-even or loss level, because they do not have the capital to keep the lights on.

If the small companies have so many advantages, that explains why Microsoft didn't come to dominate the software market, right?

Small companies or individuals do not have to make profit. They could do it for fun, fandom, or try and then go under, due to no profit. Many people sell and buy items for no profit, many collectors as well. If someone wants something, they can create it at a slight loss, and still be happy. Many small internet shops spring up, basically a hobby for someone, or they give up when they realise the work involved. Those people may have their “real” job, that pays the bills. The GW Beheamoth may not be able to create a line, where the small guy can. For so many different reasons, staff, maternity leave, EU regs, tax, VAT etc. which can be avoided by the one man band. You say that it just doesn't happen in the just doesn't happen in the niche hobby sector. Well that term, “hobby” is why it can. I'm not saying they don't all start out wanting to make profit, many just don't. That IS credible. They can keep the lights on as they live in that same house, and their actual job pays to turn them on.

Regash. You are correct, my post was regards the attitude, and that I feel it fair if GW feel affronted to pursue that. The Space Marine issue was mentioned ,and I believe GW lost as they made it too open ended. But another company was making items specifically to be glued on GW products, mimicking the chronic, and I feel that's just morally wrong. Personally I feel that crossed a line, BUT you are correct in what you say and raise very good points.

My post was:

OTOH, if they drastically change the rules AND start trying to put 3rd party manufacturers out of business with legal shenanigans, I'll never buy from GW again. (They can and should try to put 3rd party manufacturers out of business by offering better minis at better prices.)

Perhaps fat on the fire, but GW have every right to take companies, or people to court, if they were stealing their IP. If doing so puts companies out of business then that's the fault of the company (not GW). If the court makes a legal ruling, then that's right, fair and proper. If I go out and punch someone in the face, that's my fault, I caused that to happen, and if I take a right beating because of it, should I get sympathy?

You then mention that GW "should try to put 3rd party manufacturers out of business by offering better minis at better prices." What if they cannot. Various companies could operate on a minimal profit, which a large company just couldn't. In fact, a small company, or fan making his own could actually operate on no profit at all, or even on a loss. Are GW to offer their products at no profit, or a loss as well? A lot of people are selling a product, with the purpose being for Bloodbowl, but when they cross a line, then the law is clear on that.

Incorrect on various points, IP etc and the law, with thanks to that being made clear. But I stand by the other points raised. In the past I actually asked someone as I wanted to add to their product, they said yes, so I did. I don't believe I would have gone against their wishes. If I had, and then come a cropper, more fool me.