Bretonnian & Khorne

[rolo]

In my experience in Cyanide leagues, and in a tabletop league which allows Khorne, and having played both as Khorne and against them, I'd say that they're solidly tier 2. It does depend a lot on the context. In early leagues, Frenzy plus lack of Block can get them in trouble. The key is frenzy (obviously). In the hands of a skilled coach who knows how to turn Frenzy into an asset, they can be pretty scary with some development. But, against a skilled coach who can set up "frenzy traps", you're sometimes scared to throw even a 2d block, knowing that the second block would be 2d against. That kind of mixed results puts them (subjectively, in my opinion, ymmv, bla bla bla) about equal with Humans or Nurgle or so. As in, teams generally considered tier 2, with upside if you know what you're doing but with serious downside if you're still learning. But they're better than teams that are commonly considered tier 3, like Goblins or Halflings.

I have not attended any tournaments which allow Khorne teams. (I consider a "tournament" any environment which lets you start with a fixed team and skills, as opposed to a league, which starts with rookie teams that develop with SPP). I don't think they would be very good in a tournament. It's not only that they need a lot of skills - lots of teams do. But in my opinion, they need some well developed key players, like a Blodge Bloodletter or two, a killer Herald, and so on - most tournaments either just disallow skill stacking on players or make it prohibitive. Khorne position players have quite decent skill access, which is good because initially they're somewhat expensive.

They are certainly not overpowered in any environment. Somewhat the opposite actually, a lot of the criticism boils down to fluff "Any Khorne team should just pitch clear any opponent by turn 4". I haven't heard anyone who's actually played against them complaining about game balance issues, and mentally I admit that I tend to dismiss criticism of the team as old farts complaining about the game changing, or cyanide haters complaining about anything that cyanide does. Apologies to anybody who has a legitimate gripe with Daemons of Khorne.

I have nothing to add about Brettonians, never having played them or against them

Edit: I typed this up before looking in detail at your attached graphic. "Group Two" and "Group Three" seem to collectively contain teams that are often considered simply "Tier Two". So I say Khorne is Tier Two, and I can't really buttonhole them into Group Two or Three. Depends on the environment. If they can take a lot of skills, they'd be closer to Group Two. If it's more like rookie teams, they're more Group Threeish.

[Shushnik]

Actually, given the grouping described above, I think Brets might even belong in your tier 1.
IMO a handful of your tier 1 could be lifted up to a tier 0. Brets would not be among those.
Where to draw the line on a would-be Group 0 is hard. But I'd say Wood Elfs, Undead and Lizardmen.

Cheers
Martin

Depends heavily on the skill package. With few skills chorfs, delves, and Norse shine brighter. Medium to large skill packages I think you're probably dead on.

[Shushnik]

All three teams were represented at the three die brawl this year. Simyin won the whole damned tournament.

[Shteve0]

All three teams were represented at the three die brawl this year. Simyin won the whole damned tournament.

In part due to a significantly underpriced star, I understand...?

[Flick30]

Build them

[Flick30]

And the dice to play with then

[neilnickson]

You could use those dice as markers but I'd be surprised if they are 'balanced' enough to be used to generate a random roll, they don't even look square.

[dode74]

You could use those dice as markers but I'd be surprised if they are 'balanced' enough to be used to generate a random roll, they don't even look square.

Because most dice are fine, right? Right?

[neilnickson]

An interesting article and I'm certain I've read a debate on here about the morality of the choice to use dice we believe roll high. However, all I'm saying is if you are getting a dicing and your opponent is using obviously off true dice you're not going to be happy (not that it's easy to be happy when getting a dicing at any time). Applaud the commitment to the theme though. GW did some similar dice (in brown) out of some sort of light plastic, they were squarer but we still only used them when sharing dice at a Khemri only tournament.

Anyway there are plenty of other dice themed topics on this forum.

[SunDevil]

Our annual tournament allows Brets and Khorne (and Simyin, obviously ) so I have a small bit of experience with Brets in this format.

Brets are a solid high Tier 2, maybe low Tier 1, tournament team due to the same thing that makes Norse and Dwarves good teams - mass Block/Wrestle + Guard access.

Giving Guard to all the Yeoman (if allowed by the tournament rules) is tremendous, even with their Wrestle. I thought the combo would be a detriment but it wasn't. Guard is just that good.

They brawl with the best of teams (or close) and I found them especially adept at beating Lizards. Guard + Dauntless = Lizard's Nightmare.

I think they are a fine addition to BB, though I disagree with the 'snotty, conceited Knights plus victimized peasants' fluff. I prefer noble Knights and supporters teaming up for honor and competition. The team is certainly not broken and it offers a unique play experience, unlike (in my opinion) the Khorne roster.

However, the Khorne roster is not broken either so I have no problem with tournaments (and leagues, like ours) allowing these teams.

(Side Note - I would not favor adding A access or S access to the Knights. Yes it would make them better. And more vanilla. Zzzz. Not an upgrade to me. I like their uniqueness and prefer to play teams with weaknesses and, yes, even oddities.)

Just my opinion.

[odinsgrandson]

I do not understand how High Elf and Pro Elf are ranked so low. Below Humans? They're both fantastic teams if you play them decent.

As for the two newest teams, I'd normally just put them in the middle tier- both are probably tier 2, since they aren't as rough to figure out as Vampires. But in a tournament setting, I do think the Brets are going to rise above- place them in tier 1.

I know we have a lot of purists on the boards here, but I don't see anything wrong with either team. I would prefer to instead have more passing teams added, though (especially if we could get some more that aren't elf-like).

[Darkson]

I do not understand how High Elf and Pro Elf are ranked so low. Below Humans? They're both fantastic teams if you play them decent.

You've answered your own question.

[Shushnik]

You're not going to see more passing teams because it's clearly better to bash/run over passing. Particularly in tournaments where there aren't close to enough skills to bridge the difference in success between bashing and passing.

And if you ever did get closer to balance, the crying about passing no longer being clearly inferior would be intolerable.