60k Human catcher

[Purplegoo]

Unlike most other positionals in the game, it just isn't clearly worth having.

Say, whatnow?!

Picking one sentence from one post from an Internet full of comment isn’t fair, but I have been pretty surprised by the volume of ‘Human Catchers, they’re currently not worth it’ posts I’ve seen. I’m as surprised by the amount of ‘now I might be saving 10 k, maybe I’ll give one a go’ posts, as if this change makes all of the difference.

I can listen to an argument that at the sort of artificially high TV that online progressive environments produce, Human Catchers might be a bit of a burden and surplus to requirements to some in the current meta. I will nod at an argument that anyone running three or four Catchers at any TV is playing fluffily and not trying to optimise their resources. But Human Catchers aren’t clearly worth having? Eh?

A Human Catcher is currently an important asset to his team below 1600 or so. It’s a mobile assist, it’s your Blodge access, a fast ball carrier against bigger, bashier teams Humans struggle with and he can even be a bit of a pain of defence. No-one likes a well-placed Blodge Sidestepper in an annoying position (and that strategy should come with risk – AV 7 works mechanically here as well as in other areas of discussion). I carry two in a 13 man progression squad, and I’m really happy with that balance; if I’m men down, maybe I want speedy, mobile players on my bench. I’d probably never field two on purpose unless I'm 2+ down, perhaps not even one in some circumstances, but carrying two / 13 is fine by me.

I can’t see how chopping the price tag by 10 k makes any difference at all. I’d still only take one at a 1.1 M tabletop type affair, I’d still have two in a progression environment. I guess I’ll save 20 k and get a Babe slightly more often. Not a change I’ll long be drinking to, by any means.

I think too much of the debate has been focussed upon ‘I would change Humans in this way to suit my idea of what they should be / what I think the fluff says they should be / because a formula says so’; people attached to house rules. I don’t care about any of that. I’m an unashamedly competitive coach who really likes Humans, the roster, where it sits in the meta, how they play. This 10 k Catcher price decrease changes nothing about them, and as such, it gets a thumbs up from me. There are positionals in the game that I wouldn’t touch with a barge pole, and that is no bad thing. That all positionals, races, skills, inducements are not created equal is an important and positive mechanic. Human Catchers? Absolutely worth having. I’m almost slightly disappointed that this change may nudge coaches towards better rosters without them putting the work in themselves!

Gogo unchanged Humanity.

[Milo]

I wonder if this makes more of an impact in Resurrection tournament play than in league play. In RR tournaments, you don't have to worry as much about a player dying, and the lowered cost could (I haven't run the numbers yet) make room for some new interesting builds in TV1100/1000 tournaments. Additionally, in tournament play you can frequently start Catchers as Blodgers, which mitigates the need to skill them up before they become more durable.

I'm tentatively in favor of this (not like I could change it.) I'd still like to see Halflings added to Human teams the way Orcs and Goblins go together, but this is still a step in the right direction.

[Jip]

I’m as surprised by the amount of ‘now I might be saving 10 k, maybe I’ll give one a go’ posts, as if this change makes all of the difference.

My take on it wasn't that ungrateful, I'm just not good enough (yet?!) to keep them alive long enough to skill up, or even get the chance to catch anything!

I'd still like to see Halflings added to Human teams the way Orcs and Goblins go together, but this is still a step in the right direction.

That would be awesome! One-turn touchdowns without the 'Always Hungry' roll, I'd be all over that!

[Bakunin]

At Tv1100 you could go a 2 catcher build

4 Blitz
4 line
1 thrower
1 ogre
2 catcher

3rerolls
1 apo
1 FF

[Purplegoo]

Could. I don't think I'd want more than one in the format, but to each his own.

[plasmoid]

Hi Purplegoo - in case it got lost in translation:
I did not mean: Human catchers are clearly not worth having.
I meant (and said, I think): Human catchers are not clearly worth having. Certainly not all 4 of them.
There are not a lot of positionals in the game that you look at and go "Hmmm..., I don't want all of them" - except perhaps dedicated throwers, where one is arguably enough.

I think Human Catchers are accurately priced at 60K. That's straight up formula pricing, but only 10K for Catch. Which seems fair.
If they are accurately priced at 60K, they're one of the weakest positionals in the game.
As a human coach I've used more catchers than most, so It's not that I'm all that negative towards them.

Perhaps the problem with the human team is that they're Vanilla AG3, not a lot of ST, and you don't want all their positionals.
You probably want the ogre, all 4 blitzers, 1 thrower and 2 catchers. That's not a lot of value. IMO.

So - to me - I think Catchers are fairly priced at 60K. Good.
But if the purpose of this was to make the human team better, I think the effect will be very marginal.

Cheers
Martin

PS - like Milo, I think Halflings on the team would be cool.
I'd have loved AV8 catchers too, but that isn't happening.
With both of those I think they'd be on more equal footing against Orcs.

[Purplegoo]

I don't think there was any loss in translation, and actually as I said at the time, it was an unfair sample to grab, even if it was illustrative of a wider point. That they are 0-4 is pretty much a moot point. If they were listed as 0-2, that might be more accurate as a representation of how many you might want, but it makes no difference to what turns up on a pitch. That you don't want them all is surely neither here nor there if one or two are important, which they are? If I made Black Orcs 0-16, you'd not take 16 (or even 11), and that would not make Black Orcs poor value.

Even at 70 k, I'm sure most of us could come up with a list of positionals of less use to their teams than Human Catchers, it wouldn't be tricky to draw up. Even if you just restricted yourself to big guys, some people would require a second hand of fingers.

Humans are certainly not given any more than an extremely marginal boost by this change. Which is great, they're super exactly where they are. I appreciate some have a fluff issue, but it's not something I suffer with, thankfully.

[plasmoid]

Hi Purplegoo,
I think arguing whether Human Catchers are weak positionals or not would be wasting both our time.

Here's what I don't get:
Andy/JJ/GW have decided to tweak the human team/catcher.
*presumably it is not a random act.
*And it doesn't appear to be part of large scale repricing.
*So someone must think that the team is not "super exactly where it is".

As you say:

Humans are certainly not given any more than an extremely marginal boost by this change.

I completely agree. Which makes me Wonder why they bothered doing it at all.
Cheers
Martin

[Moraiwe]

Which makes me Wonder why they bothered doing it at all.

Game gets playtested. Testers state catchers aren't good enough. Having shown themselves to be unwilling to overhaul the rules, but with a desire to placate testers, GW reduces catchers by 10k. Doesn't do anything, but looks like they listen anyway.

[Milo]

Humans are certainly not given any more than an extremely marginal boost by this change. Which is great, they're super exactly where they are. I appreciate some have a fluff issue, but it's not something I suffer with, thankfully.

I think part of the issue comes down to disparity between agility and strength skills. There's no "killer" agility skill which is a huge benefit on the level of Mighty Blow or Guard. Human Catchers give human teams access to agility skills, and some of those are of use to the player themselves, but don't synergize with the rest of the team as well. I mean, Dodge is great, and is usually the first skill for players with AG access, but Human Catchers already have that. Some of the others, like Leap, work great for AG4 players but are of limited use to AG3 players.

Remember the old Diving Tackle skill? If that was still around, would you still question taking Human Catchers? My guess is: no.

Reducing the price doesn't HURT the catchers, certainly, but I agree it doesn't make them substantially more appealing. AG8 would certainly help their durability, but it's true that it doesn't really fit with the idea of a quick, lightly armored catcher speeding down the pitch.

Personally, I think they should be ST3. Pro/High/Dark Elf catchers are. Norse and Amazon catchers are. Hell, even Ghouls are. I can't see a reasonable fluff argument to support 2ST Human Catchers -- and in NFL terms, wide receivers are built for speed, true, but are clearly not weedly little fellows. A 8337 Catch, Dodge for 70/80k would make them -- to use Martin's term -- clearly worthy of having on the team.

Alternatively, maybe you could give them a defensive skill like Fend for free -- that might help protect them a little and, assuming they survive a blitz, help support their 3AG by removing the need to dodge away in some circumstances. That would be my "think outside the box" idea.

[Purplegoo]

It's not like you haven't got MB / Guard access elsewhere; Catchers occupy a different and important role for the team. Again, if all players or skills were created equal (and some of the agility skills you give short shrift are rather handy anyway, I'm glad to have access to them somewhere), we'd have a much poorer game.

I do think, however, that this argument has reached a natural endpoint, which is fine. I think some people get too attached to their vision of what should be and forget that what exists is rather great. One person's change is always another's nightmare. Numerous versions of 'It should be this because reason x that I think is important and you might not but it really is!' is the currency of forums like this one, and that's why I usually stay well clear.

[Milo]

Oh, I'm not saying that there aren't useful agility skills, and the catchers do give the human team access to them. I'm just saying that I don't think there aren't many agility skills that give human coaches a compelling reason to use catchers JUST TO GET THEM, despite them having the worst statline among catcher types.

It is what it is -- we have a new set of rules and the only noticeable change is a 10k discount. I say I think they should be ST3, but that's clearly not going to happen at this late date, and in any case, nobody asked me.

I'm just saying that I can understand why some coaches are loathe to putting them on the roster at all, and therefore I don't think the 10k discount will make a huge difference.

[Jip]

Genuine question, what do experienced coaches actually use human catchers for?

The AG3 makes catching (and, on the throwers, throwing) unreliable, so just wondered what the meta tended to do with them?

[stashman]

Genuine question, what do experienced coaches actually use human catchers for?

The AG3 makes catching (and, on the throwers, throwing) unreliable, so just wondered what the meta tended to do with them?

I used to play livingrulebook 4-6 and the CRP.
Then I hade two catchers. Often with dauntless, block, tackle and wrestle

Now we play CRP+ where catchers get AV8

And now I have 4 in the team. Two is block, side step, one have block and jump-up (with AV8 I can use him as a bait) and the last will have dirty player and sneaky git.

AV8 gives the catcher a survival role

[Elyoukey]

Genuine question, what do experienced coaches actually use human catchers for?

The AG3 makes catching (and, on the throwers, throwing) unreliable, so just wondered what the meta tended to do with them?

MA 8 is priceless

-screening and space control when you have to run the ball from a side to another, you may want to screen your ball carrier and the 8 MA allow you to get in the correct square without gfi

-easier counterscore, if you pop the ball and give it to him he is more likely to get out of reach

-easier one turn capacity

-dodge allow you to tag some bigger rookie targets like saurus and black orcs, just tying them up for 1 turn can be usefull. And then dodge away with the dodge skill.