Talk Fantasy Football

danger rat wrote:

dode74 wrote:The quotation marks around "Both Down" are missing in the new Wrestle text. Otherwise identical

They've taken the word active out in the bit about it doesn't cause a turnover unless etc

Ah yes: "active player" became "player with the Wrestle skill".

Hold on, can you paste fhe exact wording?
Because from reading your post it sounds like if I hit a Wrestle ball carrier and the elect to use it it will cause a turnover.

CRP: "Use of this skill does not cause a turnover unless the active player was holding the ball"

BB2016 (based on the above posts): "Use of this skill does not cause a turnover unless the player with Wrestle was holding the ball".


If that's correct that's a massive boost for Wrestle.

From the CRP:

The player is specially trained in grappling techniques. This player may use Wrestle when he blocks or is blocked and a 'Both Down' result on the Block dice is chosen by either coach. Instead of applying the 'Both Down' result, both players are wrestled to the ground. Both players are Placed Prone in their respective squares event if one or both have the Block skill. Do not make Armour rolls for either player. Use of this skill does not cause a turnover unless the active player was holding the ball.

Wrestle Skill from Death Zone:

The player is specially trained in grappling techniques. This player may use Wrestle when he blocks or is blocked and a Both Down result on the Block dice is chosen by either coach. Instead of applying the Both Down result, both players are wrestled to the ground. Both players are Placed Prone in their respective squares event if one or both have the Block skill. Do not make Armour rolls for either player. Use of this skill does not cause a turnover unless the player with the Wrestle skill was holding the ball.

So as worded, I hit the Wrestle ball carrier and it causes a turnover.

Darkson wrote:So as worded, I hit the Wrestle ball carrier and it causes a turnover.

I smell more errata on the way!

But dropping the ball can by general rules never be a turnover unless it is a player from the active team that drops it right?

I agree, but skills, by definition, can override basic rules (see Piling On, both old and new). So as written now, it overrides the "active" bit.

I honestly don't think this is intentional, just poor wording, and I've tagged Andy Hoare and James Hewitt on a similar post on FB hoping that can confirm that (and maybe add it to the errata).

adhansa wrote:But dropping the ball can by general rules never be a turnover unless it is a player from the active team that drops it right?

I always thought the same, if it's my turn and I activate a player holding the ball and block or blitz and it's a both down result and either my player or another player involved in the block chooses to use wrestle then it's a turnover, because the ball has gone to ground. Right??

So I'm either completely missing the point or getting something wrong. To me the wording in wrestle is exactly the same meaning?

I dont get it!?

Just read the last line of each skill description. The CRP is perfectly clear it's only a turnover if the active player has the ball - the BB2016 says is a turnover if the Wrestle player has the ball, so you Blitz the ball carrier, he uses Wrestle, by the rules as written now he causes a turnover (given that skills can override basic rules).

OK yeah I see where your coming from now, true it dose make you think that turnover can be caused in your own turn by blitzing the opponent's ball carrier.

But only if you just read the last line, if you read the whole description it's coming from the point of view that the active player is the one with wrestle.

But yeah why change it? It's gone from being perfectly clear to questionable. Also increased the word count so no idea why they did this change. Weird

I hadn't noticed the implications of that - good spot!

I am not a native speaker.
And though I agree it is bad wording, I would not jump to the conclusion of darkson reading the rule.

Use of this skill does not cause a turnover unless the player with the Wrestle skill was holding the ball.

Is to me same as active player, talking about the current player from the one doing the action.

Use of this skill does not cause a turnover unless a player with the Wrestle skill was holding the ball.

Now this would be something else.

So I assume there will hence be a faq or errata to clarify that, but I would argue against any opponent who would use this to claim I have a turnover, because I blitzed his ball carrier.

Andy Hoare wrote:Phil, I'll see if we can get the whole skills chapter updated and made available as a PDF if we can. We intend to publish all current skills in every Death Zone Season, so as soon as DZ2 comes out those skills that had the wrong version published will be back to normal.

Understood Phil - each DZ season will have a running roster and star player summary too, so within a few months things will be sorted.

I have asked for a straight up clarification.

Thing is Wrestle is a passive skill. So if you block a player with Wrestle the skill is describing the player being hit NOT the hitter.

So yes ... as a former BB rules writer ... I do 100% agree with Darkson. If you use this wording and block a player with the ball with Wrestle and Wrestle is used on the result ... it is a turnover for the moving team.

So yes ... if you play without errata (as Andy has already said this is a mistake) ... first skill for your Catchers for sure.

Found another small re-write that unfortunately adds back uncertainty to the rules. I looked this one up just now because the rule rewrite was a big deal when we were doing CRP:

Icepelt Rulebook page 5: If the line between two passing ranges crosses any part of the receiving player's square, then you should use the higher range.

BB Rulebook page 7: If the receiving player overlaps a boundary line between two ranges on the ruler, use the longer of the two choices.

New rule adds uncertainty back to the rule that was removed with CRP. What is the definition of "the receiving player"? In early additions it was the base the player was on and we had to get rid of that because not players used the same bases for their miniatures ... but now it says receiving player ... is that the miniature itself? There is no definition of what is the receiving player ... so we went from certainty to an unresolved state with this change to the wording.