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 Post subject: Re: Questions for a Q&A about the new rules - please contrib
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:50 pm 
Super Star
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lunchmoney wrote:
Milo wrote:
I don't see the suggestion you're referencing that Piling On vs. Loner wouldn't expend a re-roll.
My fail at reading, I'll go away now.


Maybe it's my fail at writing, so no need to go away.

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 Post subject: Re: Questions for a Q&A about the new rules - please contrib
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:03 pm 
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GalakStarscraper wrote:
Still think it was one of the worst possible revisions to the skill that could have been selected when so many much better ones were available. Really poor choice.

This.

Even if we adopted the rest of the BB2016 rules (and I doubt we will) I would always house-rule out this ridiculous rule.

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 Post subject: Re: Questions for a Q&A about the new rules - please contrib
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:34 pm 
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Darkson wrote:
GalakStarscraper wrote:
Still think it was one of the worst possible revisions to the skill that could have been selected when so many much better ones were available. Really poor choice.

This.

Even if we adopted the rest of the BB2016 rules (and I doubt we will) I would always house-rule out this ridiculous rule.


For the record, I don't wholly disagree with you or Galak on this. I do not like the current Piling On rule.

On the other hand, the previous edition of Piling On, where it could be used, potentially, on eleven blocks a turn, was fine... until it stopped being fine, and when it stopped being fine, it DESTROYED games.

People are understandably upset about Weeping Blades, because it does nothing but hurt one player in future games. But a CPOMB player can remove a player from the field 58% of the time. That means that more than half of the time, when you hit someone they are KO'd or casualtied. That means that roughly 25% of the knocked over players are out for the rest of this game or longer.

Now add to that that the teams who can get CPOMB are primarily the Chaos teams who tend to have high armor and don't suffer many casualties themselves, which means given enough games, virtually every Chaos team can get this combination on EVERYONE.

Imagine that you face off against a Chaos team who hits you 11 times in the first turn and you have five players left on the field, three KOs and three casualties. How can you have fun in that matchup?

Piling On is fine in short leagues and tournament play. But extend into longer seasons, perpetual play, and the old Piling On just plain wrecked the game. It made it NO FUN (well, for most people -- there are some heartless monsters who like nothing more than forcing an opponent to abandon a team because half of them are dead.) No amount of wandering apothecaries could ever make it worthwhile for a finesse team to play a CPOMB team. Even CPOMB v. CPOMB matchups mostly work out to whomever goes first and cripples the opponent the most.

I don't understand how anyone could say that Weeping Blades is a problem and not recognize that CPOMB has the potential to make the game waaaay less fun than Weeping Blades ever could.

When I was explaining earlier how Loner interacted with it, it wasn't meant as an endorsement for the current rule, but an explanation, a clarification, of how it works. I still think that there's a better version of Piling On that can be adopted someday, because the current version makes it all but worthless. If your league or tournament isn't going to be prone to the Piling On Death Spiral, then by all means, house rule it. I probably will. But the current version WILL mean that the game stays fun even at high TV, perpetual leagues -- or at least more fun than it was before it was changed. That's the way I see it.

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 Post subject: Re: Questions for a Q&A about the new rules - please contrib
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:44 pm 
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Well said Milo.

There are very few folks (I admit there are some) but very few folks who opposed Piling On being made a worse skill to address ClawPoMb. I know I was very much in favor of the skill being changed. Its just it was changed to make it worthless ... ie ... it should have just been deleted from the game like Razor Sharp Claws rather than get nerfed so hard as to be a skill that no good player would take.

So to your point above ... yup ... agreed! But I hope in Death Zone #3 that they bring the skill back as something that addresses this without making the skill worthless and also without making it optional (which was the other really bad decision by GW). I get what they were going for ... but they missed. I'm hoping they can listen to the solid suggestions that allow it to be a non-optional, non-worthless skill that address ClawPoMb at the same time.

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 Post subject: Re: Questions for a Q&A about the new rules - please contrib
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:57 pm 
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Make Pile On only work on 'POW's and give give your opponent +1 (on armor) on fouls against a pile on player (they are now "reckless").

Means you must follow-up and fouling is the counter to pile on (+2 with dirty player).

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 Post subject: Re: Questions for a Q&A about the new rules - please contrib
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:04 pm 
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Or you could just make PO a foul action (in actual gridiron football, PO is a penalty), so doesn't stack with other skills and have a chance to be sent off. Doesn't have to just be used vs. someone your player just took down, as a foul action your player could move and perform PO on a prone player. Might stop people from putting PO on BGs as most people don't use them for fouling.
Just wanted to throw that out there, feel free to ignore. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Questions for a Q&A about the new rules - please contrib
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:28 pm 
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Colin wrote:
Or you could just make PO a foul action (in actual gridiron football, PO is a penalty), so doesn't stack with other skills and have a chance to be sent off. Doesn't have to just be used vs. someone your player just took down, as a foul action your player could move and perform PO on a prone player. Might stop people from putting PO on BGs as most people don't use them for fouling.
Just wanted to throw that out there, feel free to ignore. :wink:


See, I actually kinda like that, but I would say, maybe: After performing a Block against an opposing player in an adjacent square and failing to cause an injury, this player may be Placed Prone in order to immediately perform a Foul action (if they have not already performed a Foul action this turn) against the player they just blocked.

Nice and simple, gives you an extra chance to injure, and would be limited to once per turn. Then it would combo with Sneaky Git and Dirty Player instead of Mighty Blow and Claw, and would carry the chance of a penalty. On the other hand, this would be a Strength skill of limited value to Strength players, who generally don't want to risk ejection.

It's an idea that has some merit, and certainly would fit the IDEA of the skill, but would you ever give it to an Ogre? Chaos Warrior? Saurus? I doubt it.

Although an interesting skill idea (and I know this is not exactly my what collin proposed), I don't think it fits the niche that Piling On exists in right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Questions for a Q&A about the new rules - please contrib
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:32 pm 
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Or stop listening to online pixel-huggers and leave the table top game alone, as Clawpomb isn't a problem in TT.

I've seen sooo many threads on this and yet NO-ONE has been able to show it to be a problem anywhere, and the only place it MIGHT be a problem is online (and even then it's not a balance problem, given the 100 of 1000s of game data they have, just a "wah wah wah, my AV9 player died" problem), which they could just houserule it to suit their environment (they already have houserules, like the Cyanide's nerf concession rule, so there's no reason they can't add another).

But this doesn't need to be another Clawpomb thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Questions for a Q&A about the new rules - please contrib
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:44 pm 
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Darkson wrote:
But this doesn't need to be another Clawpomb thread.
Agreed

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 Post subject: Re: Questions for a Q&A about the new rules - please contrib
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:39 pm 
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Darkson wrote:
Or stop listening to online pixel-huggers and leave the table top game alone, as Clawpomb isn't a problem in TT.

I've seen sooo many threads on this and yet NO-ONE has been able to show it to be a problem anywhere, and the only place it MIGHT be a problem is online (and even then it's not a balance problem, given the 100 of 1000s of game data they have, just a "wah wah wah, my AV9 player died" problem), which they could just houserule it to suit their environment (they already have houserules, like the Cyanide's nerf concession rule, so there's no reason they can't add another).

But this doesn't need to be another Clawpomb thread.


You may not agree, but Clawpomb has been a problem in every table top league I played in. And you dont get too decide what constitutes "broken".
And therefore I refuse to play any team that has clawpomb, if I dont also have one or more.

But lets see, now I play in a league that uses full bb2016 rules, so I guess I won't see any pile on. So now you actually have to play this tactical board game.

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 Post subject: Re: Questions for a Q&A about the new rules - please contrib
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:19 pm 
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Bakunin wrote:
And you dont get too decide what constitutes "broken".
Neither do you. The BBRC could and did, and Andy et al could and did. Disliked? Certainly. Broken? Not at all. And ofc the designers can choose to do what they want as preference. The current designers' preference was to nerf to near-uselessness. I can't claim it is broken, but I can say I don't like it.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions for a Q&A about the new rules - please contrib
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:35 pm 
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dode74 wrote:
Neither do you.


Thats the point.

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 Post subject: Re: Questions for a Q&A about the new rules - please contrib
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:11 pm 
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Darkson wrote:
Or stop listening to online pixel-huggers and leave the table top game alone, as Clawpomb isn't a problem in TT.

I've seen sooo many threads on this and yet NO-ONE has been able to show it to be a problem anywhere, and the only place it MIGHT be a problem is online (and even then it's not a balance problem, given the 100 of 1000s of game data they have, just a "wah wah wah, my AV9 player died" problem), which they could just houserule it to suit their environment (they already have houserules, like the Cyanide's nerf concession rule, so there's no reason they can't add another).

But this doesn't need to be another Clawpomb thread.


I agree that this doesn't need to turn into another CPOMB thread. But I think the official Blood Bowl rules should encompass EVERY playing format, not just Table Top. I know this was Jervis' goal for the rules, to develop a single set of rules which worked in both short-term and perpetual leagues. Now that GW has taken back control of the rules-writing, I think it is incumbent upon them to consider all formats of play, not just their favorite.

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 Post subject: Re: Questions for a Q&A about the new rules - please contrib
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:48 pm 
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Bakunin wrote:
You may not agree, but Clawpomb has been a problem in every table top league I played in. And you dont get too decide what constitutes "broken".
And therefore I refuse to play any team that has clawpomb, if I dont also have one or more.

All you're saying is that you refuse to play Blood Bowl unless people play by your house rules. Does that really count as playing Blood Bowl? If I refused to play football unless people agreed to play with two balls simultaneously, or without grass, am I really playing football? Am I really a fan of the game?

You have a problem with it, but it is not objectively a problem. It seems clear from multiple threads you don't understand why your subjective opinion is not on-par with the status quo for the game or the community as a whole... I'm not sure that leaves you with any common ground with anyone who doesn't already believe what you believe. It's like silly religious dogma - you believe something blindly, are not dissuaded by evidence (or lack of) and all you bring to the table is shouting your belief over and over.

Milo wrote:
But I think the official Blood Bowl rules should encompass EVERY playing format, not just Table Top.

That's more wishful thinking than realistic expectation. Games Workshop sells board games and minis... and they've never been very accomodating to anybody about anything if they thought, for a second, it would decrease or even not shamelessly promote their own sales. It was a pretty huge thing for them to have any cross-over with online at all in the new set, but they did include that 50% off and special DLC code for Cyanide's BB2.

Milo wrote:
I know this was Jervis' goal for the rules, to develop a single set of rules which worked in both short-term and perpetual leagues.

They sort'v covered that with the re-drafting rules, didn't they? You could go basically forever with the same teams without things breaking down so long as you used those and didn't make a season be more than a few months in length. My knee-jerk reaction to re-drafting was shock and horror, but its grown on me.

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 Post subject: Re: Questions for a Q&A about the new rules - please contrib
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 6:06 pm 
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@VoodooMike

I could say the same to you too. You still dont get it.

We are talking about a board game and I would say the imperative of (this) board games is to be fun. If it stops being fun, its loses all meaning.

So the evidence Im looking for would be survey based, i.e. ask all attendees at all 20+ coach NAF events as an example (or other sampels of blood bowl players) and ask them:

"Is Clawpomb fun to play with/against?"
"is it overpowered?"
etc.

You frase the question.
If such surveys came out in favor of clawpomb, I would say it still breaks the game for me, but recognize that im the minority and therefore stop "shouting [my] belief over and over".

So I would say that, you can probably make good game design, and make games where the 'objective' numbers set by the game designeres are meet, but if something is experienced as way out of place en masse, the game is at least not as fun as it could be and probably drives people away. At least...

But lets see Mike, now the game design is in the hands of 2 GW employees that are trying to sell as many mini's as possible, so we may both be disappointed over the next year or two.

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