Grak and Crumbleberry

[CyberedElf]

I admit to complaining and expressing fears. I won't say all the fears are gone, but things have been looking up. I appreciate Milo's and JT-Y's responses. They encourage me that things are going in the right direction and that some of the recent mistakes are less likely to be repeated.

My biggest remaining concern is still the spread of information sources. I know that while GW stays active with BB they will always be releasing new things. That's good, but it does create a burden to be prepared. This burden will fall mostly on the shoulders of commissioners and NAF, and I think they can handle it. (I was in one non-NAF tournament where they didn't have a clue, but I think/hope that is the exception.)

My biggest wish is a rules repository with all rules and optional rules in one location. Ideally single document, but I'll be happy with a single download page or app. I know there are difficulties with this. I think the app would be the easiest location, even if not my favorite. Some rules are pay and some are free, but they could all be in one place. Mobile screens are not necessarily A4 ratio to begin with so that isn't a problem.

[Slothman]

Well this will most likely be the last post I make on any Blood Bowl related forum.

I have read through this and other threads and thought I would make a point, again, and a little see you all later.

Essentially this release has killed my local scene, dead in the water.

We went from a pretty solid Blood Bowl League of 10 seasons (last season was 12+ coaches for a small town) and a successful tournament that was heading into its 8th year.

Now, I am not laying the total blame at the feet of this launch, far from it. There has been many factors, however this has not helped. Let me explain why.

Mainly uncertainty. Most of the new players I recruited last season loved the game due to the solid rule book and the relative cheap outlay to get involved. Sure it was nearly impossible to get the old box set but using companies like Impact players where able to get a full team, board and accessories for quite a cheap price and get into it.

I cautioned the existing players about the new release saying "Look, I really don't know." I refuse to allow people to use copied PDF,s and encourage people to purchase the rules of anything I do. But this launch really didn't help.

No lessons where learnt, there is just too many different places to get different rules, its a bit of a joke. I mean come on the SECOND someone thought it was a good idea to have "app exclusive" rules and content....needed to be fired. The app could have been a GREAT idea as a depository for ALL the released content and I would have easily paid a subscription to that service.

But considering I needed to buy the rule book a SECOND time through the app, as well as chase down other rules from other areas that my players might have wanted to use, crazy.

So Blood Bowl is now dead where I am, and I won't be fighting to rebuild it. I am going to let it go quietly into the night. I might get the passion back in 2-3 years time, but I doubt it.

We are a small league so the loss of this league will not hurt Blood Bowl in any way but here is a 20/20 hindsight of what I would have done if I was in charge of this roll out considering my interest would have been generating profit and interest for Games Workshop.

- Delay the release until you are ready. Come on guys, releasing the Box Set without the max positional's is one thing. Doing it without access to a blister pack to fill them, reeks of a money grab. These should have been ready at launch for the Humans and Orcs. No excuses here, absolutely none. The rest of the box was awesome, why fall so short?

- The rulebook. This is unforgivable. In a time when rules are generally free for everything this was just so poorly done. The Box Set should have contained the FULL CORE RULES. Nothing you can say can defend this ESPECIALLY "its how it was before". So what, did it work? Could it be improved on? The rule book should have included the basic rules ala what was in the box. But it should have also included the "advanced" rules, the list of teams, the list of skills and a bucket ton of fluff....lots of damn fluff. From there release as many paid for rule sets as you want, League Rules, special cards, star players....whatever. But the core rules should have been in the box. Having to convince new players to buy 2 Box sets and an "extra" rule book is too much like 40k. WE PLAY BLOOD BOWL BECAUSE IT IS NOT 40k.....

- The release of rules. As I stated, the app could have been used as a subscription service to collect and distribute ALL of the rules from all the other sources for convenience. Its a joke now, and one I will not take part in.

Do you realise how many more sales you would get with this system? I mean seriously new and old players would have been ALL OVER THIS. I would have been. Imagine allowing customers to buy what they wanted and not feel forced into extra unwanted purchases because, at that point, its the only way to play those teams to their fullest. I am sick of hearing that "is how GW do things". Again so what? Maybe its time they changed.

On saying that I really liked some of the stuff they did do, extra dice, reroll tokens etc etc, solid board. Good stuff. Why fall short to clutch at extra $$$ when you could have just released solid teams and accessories as well is beyond me. I REALLY REALLY REALLY wanted to buy some stuff....glad I just decided to wait.

Anyway, its been fun, and like I said this isn't the sole blame for the death locally, but it is one of the reasons expressed to me by people (mainly new) pulling out. Have fun, Blood Bowl will be around for a long time to come, I just won't be around to see that for a few years. I don't see me wanting to start to rebuild a community again, been there, done that, way too damn often.

[Manuel]

We decided to keep using CRP just as we have been doing these past years. And new players are warned about GW's rule policy and quality, which is something everyone could see from the beginning. And our number of players has been raising.

I think you should have encouraged them to stick with 1 single pdf, that of the LRB6.

[Slothman]

We decided to keep using CRP just as we have been doing these past years. And new players are warned about GW's rule policy and quality, which is something everyone could see from the beginning. And our number of players has been raising.

I think you should have encouraged them to stick with 1 single pdf, that of the LRB6.

I did, but the thought of eventually moving across to the new stuff, just scared them. Again it wasn't the only reason, but it was definitely a contributing factor. There is a rouge factor at work locally as well who where spreading the rumour of "illegal use" of content. I even had to get a confirmation from GW, but its easy to spread misinformation when the evidence helps the belief.

I think the fact the NAF was asked to remove the CRP for "clarity" did not help as some of them saw that as GW's removal of permission to share the CRP. As stated I am dead against sharing PDF's illegally, so maybe with that misinformation they thought I was going to force them to by the DZ1 and then DZ2 (again they are not keen on having to keep buying extra unknown rules), all the special cards, the app, White Dwarfs, Boards, Star Players etc etc...you get my point .

Lack of information and direction I think are serious concerns for the newer players. I would LOVE to know a percentage of new players to the game who purchased the box set and still playing in say November. So a full year, what is the drop off rate. I think that would be interesting.

[stashman]

Most coaches in this forum are oldtimers.

Fear of new rules 'fokking' up their playstyle

Its up to everyone to play as they want.

But to say that the old crp pdf files attracts more and new players is not what I can imagine.

But new new boxes, teams, miniatures, special play cards and stuff in the white dwarf builds up a hype!

And I love that.

Its sad to read all negative posts on a positive forum.... or will this forum only have the oldtimers in the end.

I guess all new coaches will see this forum as a negative feeder and they will leave and join up on reddit or some facebook group.

Soo all you oldtimers - stop spitting negative feeds if you want new blood to the game.

[Milo]

Anyway, its been fun, and like I said this isn't the sole blame for the death locally, but it is one of the reasons expressed to me by people (mainly new) pulling out. Have fun, Blood Bowl will be around for a long time to come, I just won't be around to see that for a few years. I don't see me wanting to start to rebuild a community again, been there, done that, way too damn often.

I'm sorry to hear that your league has fallen apart. I also think it's a shame that you're placing so much of the blame on the BB2016 release, which I think has been generally well received and COULD have served to bring new players to your group instead of alienating them.

You say "We play Blood Bowl because it's not 40k", and that is undoubtedly true of some coaches, but it is just as equally UNTRUE of other coaches. Perhaps you meant to apply that only to your particular league, but it's certainly not the case across the board. There are many GW crossover coaches who play multiple GW games. I haven't seen a survey on this particular topic, but I suspect more than 50% of BB coaches play other GW games.

Yes, the CRP was available for free for many years, and while GW has asked the NAF to take their link down, it's still widely available on the internet and GW has not made any attempt to clamp down on it or prosecute people for using it. Based on what you say about your coaches complaining about illegal use, it sounds like you had personality issues at play that may have destabilized your league more than the new rules did.

There is ZERO reason for any coach to have to "buy two box sets". Beyond the fact that two coaches could buy two copies of the game and then swap Orc sprues for Human sprues and have full and complete teams, they are WIDELY available on eBay and other trading sites. Plus there are numerous options to convert your own blitzers/BOBs from other GW figures. I'm sorry, but that's simply a fallacy.

Beyond that, a lot of what you are discussing is 20/20 hindsight.

• GW has learned from the App experience and is now offering the DZ1/2 rules in EPUB format, which is widely available in eReaders.
• GW recognized that the editing in BB/DZ1 was subpar and involved a experienced group of coaches to give feedback and point out issues.
• I agree with you that it would have been great if GW had Orc and Human teams ready to buy day 1, especially since they already had the sprues designed. I can't speak to the logic behind the release date, but I do know that the strong sales of it in 2016 have enabled the team to grow in 2017 and will increase their future output.

You're basically saying "we're abandoning the game because of X and Y" without admitting the fact that GW is already addressing X and Y. X and Y may have been mistakes, granted, but they are now in the past and cannot be undone. The company is trying to fix them for the future, but the past is the past.

In a way, GW actually did themselves a disservice by EVER allowing the BB rules to be given away for free. If you look at all of their products across the board, no actively sold GW game has ever had a free ruleset. Some manufacturers operate in this way, but GW never has (with the exception of some of the specialist games like Blood Bowl.) You can debate the pros and cons of that, but you can't say they are being inconsistent. If the CRP hadn't been given away for free, we likely wouldn't be having this complaint right now. (Of course, Blood Bowl might not have been getting rebooted right now if it hadn't been for the NAF and the CRP, so it's a double-edged sword.)

I also agree that they should combine all of the rules together in one place. I know they've heard that feedback and are looking into how they could do it, but I don't have an ETA. I don't think that they should stop printing special rules like the stuff they've put into White Dwarf just because of this, though. That sort of support keeps Blood Bowl visible in the eyes of GW customers, which increase sales for them and new coaches for our community.

It should be noted that, despite GW's re-entry into the market, all of those third-party manufacturers are still going strong, and many leagues are still chugging along using the CRP rules -- which really are not markedly different than BB2016. If your league could run before BB2016 was released, it can still run in exactly the same fashion now -- or you could update to use the new BB2016 rules. Are Weeping Daggers and Piling On enough reason to torpedo a league? I don't think so.

I think it's funny that people are so upset about BB2016 team boxes. No, they don't come with a full set of position players -- but Blood Bowl teams basically never do. There are some exceptions like the 3rd Ed Dwarves, but those are rare. Even third party manufacturers and kickstarters usually have as their base purchase a team of 12 players. Back in the days of 3rd Edition, you'd have to buy a second box of expensive metal miniatures to fill out your roster -- or hunt down a blister of the expansion pack for that team. They weren't all available the day the rules came out, or the day the main team came out, and if you compare the costs, adjusted for inflation, I think you'll find that the plastic teams of today are less expensive than the comparable teams in the past.

Yes, GW wants to make money off Blood Bowl. They are a BUSINESS. They are dedicating development funds to new rules and new miniatures which they expect to make a profit off of. But if you're criticizing them for making money, you're really losing sight of what's realistic. The new plastic teams are a great deal, both in relation to other GW products, in relation to older GW Blood Bowl teams, and in relation to current 3rd party teams. Only some of Impact's Trollcast teams seem to compare on the price level. Shouldn't it be easier to get new teams to join a league if they can start playing with one $35USD plastic team, even if they eventually would need to buy a second $35USD plastic team to fill out their roster (total of $70USD), than it is to convince someone to shell out €74.95 plus shipping to get a 12 man roster from Comixininos? (Again, Impact has some outstanding deals on their site for Trollcast teams, but I don't think their price point negates the comparison between GW and Meiko/Willy/Greebo/etc.)

I am truthfully saddened to hear that your league has fallen apart. What you've stated as constructive criticism is good to hear and I'll try to pass some of it along (and I'm sure the GW staff will read it here too -- they do follow community forums when they can.) I just don't think it's fair to lay all of that blame at the feet of GW and BB2016.

[straume]

Shouldn't it be easier to get new teams to join a league if they can start playing with one $35USD plastic team, even if they eventually would need to buy a second $35USD plastic team to fill out their roster (total of $70USD), than it is to convince someone to shell out €74.95 plus shipping to get a 12 man roster from Comixininos?

Sure, but a box with 4 Gutter runners instead of 2 for say 50 USD would be even better

[Milo]

Shouldn't it be easier to get new teams to join a league if they can start playing with one $35USD plastic team, even if they eventually would need to buy a second $35USD plastic team to fill out their roster (total of $70USD), than it is to convince someone to shell out €74.95 plus shipping to get a 12 man roster from Comixininos?

Sure, but a box with 4 Gutter runners instead of 2 for say 50 USD would be even better

Fair enough. A box with everything I need for a buck would be even still better! But any company that tried to sell that would go quickly out of business.

I'm just saying that it's unfair to say "this is crap because it could be better", especially when what GW is offering is competitive OR BETTER than the other options currently on the market. Is it perfect? No. Is it comparable to what other companies supporting BB are offering at the same price point? Yes. Do I phrase these points as questions because it makes me sound smarter? Yes.

[stashman]

Milo got it spot on!!!

Blood bowl players have beem spoiled with free rules and now think its "expensive" to buy a deathzone or boxed game after more than 10 years...

Please what do you really ask for? GW makes great products and with fair prices. I pay 100 swedish kronor for a pack of special plays card - and thats what I pay for a pue and coffee at a "standard" cafe.

GWs stuff is not expensive!!! Smoking is expensive. In sweden I get around 2 draught beer for 100 kronor. A pack of cigarettes cost around 60 kronor.

Sigh.... What is not expensive from other manufacturers?????

Comixininos is not cheap. What rules and board games are cheap and free in the year 2017??

[Regash]

I still think that there is a difference between Tabletops and Boardgames.

If you bought a boardgame, let's say chess, and you like it, would you bother to go buy new rules every other year?
You wouldn't, I'm pretty sure. LRB 1 would have been the last LRB if you had to cough up money for it, I'm pretty sure, as the changes from version to version never really were mindblowing.

Why it does work for Tabletops, I'm clueless.

[faust_33]

@Slothman: I'm sensing a lot of frustration in your post and probably a lot of that comes from the disbanding of your league. I'm not in your shoes, but I think I would try salvaging some of it by finding the like minded players in your group. If there are those who are just fine with CRP rules and that's what you are most comfortable with, then I would just go with that. Definitely easier to run CRP in a league at this point.

It sounds like eventually the new rules will get hammered into shape and probably be available in one blob. But being new stuff, that usually takes awhile. Though anyone can play the 'wait and see' game while running CRP.

At the very least, I hope you stick around TFF. Maybe just take a week break from the forum and see how you feel?

[Darkson]

You say "We play Blood Bowl because it's not 40k", and that is undoubtedly true of some coaches, but it is just as equally UNTRUE of other coaches. Perhaps you meant to apply that only to your particular league, but it's certainly not the case across the board. There are many GW crossover coaches who play multiple GW games. I haven't seen a survey on this particular topic, but I suspect more than 50% of BB coaches play other GW games.

I think what Slothman was getting at here (and please correct me if I got it wrong) is that BB, unlike 40k, was a "one-time" purchase, or at the very least, you only needed book x, book y and book z - all the info was there, and none of it was duplicated .I stopped playing 40k 4-5 editions ago, so I can only go by what the people in my club that did play it (until the last year or so), but they we talking about having to pay to get multiple books to find all their rules for their specific army (and woe betide those that had multiple forces) with the added issue of some rules only being Limited Edition and/or online only (which then was Apple-only - no good if you didn't own an Apple device). Also 40k had (has?) lots of power-creep and buy-to-win to "encourage" the player to buy the next release (Knights, Drop Pods, Flyers).

I stopped playing GW's "big" games years ago as I just couldn't be bothered with the attitudes above (and WFB had it's fair share of those issues) but I carried on playing Necromunda and Mordheim (alongside BB of course) specifically because they didn't have those issues - if you bought the rulebook, you had all the rules, you didn't need to go out and buy x, y and/or z to get something.
The current mode for the release of BB doesn't bode well for Necromunda.

[Manuel]

Darkson, I think what Milo said includes you:

You are not their main market target (nor am I).

I think we can expect "hype inducing" releases, with surprising new "fun" rules that compel you to buy the last teams, or positional.

[Olaf the Stout]

Shouldn't it be easier to get new teams to join a league if they can start playing with one $35USD plastic team, even if they eventually would need to buy a second $35USD plastic team to fill out their roster (total of $70USD), than it is to convince someone to shell out €74.95 plus shipping to get a 12 man roster from Comixininos?

Sure, but a box with 4 Gutter runners instead of 2 for say 50 USD would be even better

Fair enough. A box with everything I need for a buck would be even still better! But any company that tried to sell that would go quickly out of business.

I'm just saying that it's unfair to say "this is crap because it could be better", especially when what GW is offering is competitive OR BETTER than the other options currently on the market. Is it perfect? No. Is it comparable to what other companies supporting BB are offering at the same price point? Yes. Do I phrase these points as questions because it makes me sound smarter? Yes.

Milo, I think you're misrepresenting his argument. He's not saying GW's offering of 2 boxes to make a full team for $70 USD is crap. He's just saying that offering a full team of positionals for $50 USD would be preferable.

$50 for a 14 man team is not a financially unviable price for GW, like the $1 offer you proposed. It is something GW could have considered.

Also your Comixininos example isn't really a like for like example.

The GW Skaven team is cast in plastic, is missing 2 Gutter Runners and only has 6 different sculpts (so if I buy 2 boxes to get full positionals I get 4 identical Gutter Runner minis).

I can't buy the Gutter Runners separately, so to get all the positionals on the team (outside of the Rat Ogre) it costs me $70 USD. If I want to add a GW Rat Ogre to the team then it will cost me nearly $30 USD (including shipping) to get the Forgeworld Rat Ogre. So a full GW Skaven team is just under $100 USD. I get 25 minis for that price, but that just means I have a heap of extras I don't need, yet still only have only 7 unique sculpts on my team.

Comixininos currently has 3 different Skaven teams available. They are all cast in metal and have between 9-13 unique positionals on each team. The full team with 16 players will cost between $100-110 USD, which is still price comparable to GW.

However, it is rare in Blood Bowl to actually have a team of 16 players. So, if I just wanted a team of 14 with max positionals it would cost me about $80 plus shipping for a Uscarl Skaven team. Of that team of 14, there would be 13 unique sculpts.

Personally, if I had the choice between a team with 7 sculpts or a team with 13 sculpts (assuming similar sculpting quality), the team with 13 sculpts would be my choice every single time.

I am aware that GW is bringing out extra Skaven sculpts via Forgeworld and I am super happy and very excited to see that they are doing that. I'll definitely be buying them as I really value having unique sculpts on the field. I just wish they'd been available when the Skaven team was released.

[mikeyc222]

I can't buy the Gutter Runners separately...

just playing devil's advocate here, but you can't buy them separately? not even on eBay?
i get the spirit of what you are saying, but in practice, you can buy any number of single minis that you want if you put even the slightest bit of effort in.