Grak and Crumbleberry

[Milo]

Well said. I would be more worried if the minis were messed up, as that's not an easily fixable error. For all I know, the cards were printed up months ago, so there was no way to fix them. A posted errata is an easy fix. Yes, not everyone is going to see it, but I see errata's released all the time for other boardgames as well. Just make sure the errata is posted on Games Workshop site, for all to see/reference. Hopefully the rules for the two minis can be fixed up for DZ2 as well.

Now I have to go find the info about Goblins getting released next, I could have sworn it was Dwarves!

That is quite exactly the case. The rules were already printed before GW did the sensible thing and started getting other eyes on their rules. Nothing to be done, although I'm still hopeful we'll post some errata for them soon.

Dwarves are next... but Goblins aren't far off. They serve four purposes: gobbos for the Orc teams, Goblin Renegades for Chaos Pact, the other half of Underworld teams, and also of course Goblin teams themselves. As a release of plastic figures, they are very versatile.

[Milo]

Okay, I'll agree with you that this skill should not have been added just to match the models. But it has been -- why is it a problem?

You admit it should not have happened. It did happen. Why is this a problem you ask? I refer you back to yourself - you just admitted it should not have happened!

I said I wouldn't have added it. But I don't see the problem with the skill or why it is creating such an uproar. It's neither devastating nor common. And believe me, I play a lot of Skaven -- Gutter Runners just don't cause that many casualties.

I won't out anyone else, but I'll go ahead and say it here -- I'm one of the "experienced coaches" who has been helping them review rules.

Oh really? That is interesting. Hadn't you practically stopped playing Blood Bowl even seven years ago when you were on the BBRC? How much high level Blood Bowl have you experienced?

I wasn't on the BBRC seven years ago -- I left the BBRC prior to that when my first wife was experiencing serious health issues and I needed to focus on her and my toddler son. I asked Jervis to replace me with Tom Anders, and I think that was the best possible recommendation I could have ever made.

I moved to Switzerland four years ago and have gotten back into Blood Bowl. Last year I went to half a dozen Blood Bowl tournaments in Switzerland and Germany, this year I'll probably do twice that. I still haven't made it to one of the Majors, although I am planning to go to the NAF Championship this year. Additionally I play in a league that meets about every week or two, and I'm logging a decent number of games on Blood Bowl 2. I haven't gotten into FUMBBL yet, though.

I don't pretend to say that there are not more experienced coaches out there. But I volunteered my services and they were accepted.

[faust_33]

Dwarves are next... but Goblins aren't far off. They serve four purposes: gobbos for the Orc teams, Goblin Renegades for Chaos Pact, the other half of Underworld teams, and also of course Goblin teams themselves. As a release of plastic figures, they are very versatile.

Thanks for the update, and that makes perfect sense! Also reminds me that I need to make an Orc team with a Gobbo on it. I always forget that the Orcs have quite a few options. I guess I overlook them as one of the 'basic teams that came in the box'.

[Milo]

You are right that the current rule set is optimized for resurrection style tournaments, but it's a fallacy to think that is the only way Blood Bowl is being played

Well... tournament play has been what kept BB alive all this years. So perhaps trying to maintain its health above the rest of the possible styles of play would be advisable.

I have to disagree there. The NAF and the sanctioned tournaments are huge, sure -- but FUMBBL probably logs more games of Blood Bowl than all the tournaments put together. And that's not counting the influx of new players from the crossover success of Cyanide's Blood Bowl game. How many copies do you think they've sold of their dozen or so different variants? Can you REALLY say that Tournament play is the only thing that's kept Blood Bowl alive all these years?

And while I doubt they are AS influential as the others, ignoring the humble pub and home leagues would be a REAL disservice to Blood Bowl.

And, to be honest, some level of recognition to Galak would have been a very polite gesture. Ideally he would be the one making the rules, and I am sure most of the people would trust more this obscure process.

Putting all the cards on the table, Tom has been incredibly valuable to Blood Bowl -- but he also operates a competing fantasy football miniature manufacturer. I know that Andy and James are both respectful of Tom's contributions and listen to what he has to say, but there are lots of politics in play. It's unrealistic to not acknowledge them.

[Milo]

Heres my pennies worth on Grak and Crumbleberry and all other rule changes potential rule changes or scale changes from someone ho as played the game casually after someone brought in a handbook from 2nd edition to school and three of us trotted of to the closest GW to buy a team. I've never played in a tournament, play online quite a bit don't consider myself a blood bowl expert but I know the game well enough to know how it's changed over the years. This recent release is as close I've come to that initial excitement of seeing that handbook all those years ago.

Digger, thanks for sharing your positive thoughts. I think we don't do enough of it. I have three third edition boards and frankly more teams than I need, but I still went out and bought a copy of the new game for myself AND three copies for my older sons. I bought the rules via the Dugout app AND went and bought a copy of Death Zone in hardcopy. I feel a lot of the same excitement you do, and I'm excited to see what GW is going to add in the future (and yes, I am excited about what's in DZ2.)

[Milo]

People, including you have stated repeatedly that this release is for new players, and yet poor rules like this will pass new players by and leave them wondering why when they try to use them experienced players say no.

Yeah, I think this is a problem too.

Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy tournament BB, but I don't think it's any more important than league play in the health of BB.

Finally, you and I are agreeing on something, Darkson! Is it the end of the world?

[Manuel]

Well... tournament play has been what kept BB alive all this years. So perhaps trying to maintain its health above the rest of the possible styles of play would be advisable.

Really? You don't think there have been (and are) leagues that have been running as long, if not longer, than tournaments?
There are still players that, while being up to date with the rules, have never played in a tournament, or intend to.

Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy tournament BB, but I don't think it's any more important than league play in the health of BB.

Well, by "keeping it alive" I was referring to the incredibly big number of additional manufacturers that have kept the interest alive.

House leagues are great, but they usually have very restricted areas of influence, so I wouldn't call that "keeping it alive". Necromunda is still also played in regional environments... but they can't have external projection without some companies investing time and money in the hobby.

And Cyanide's game only appeared AFTER there was a solid tournament scene, and an international agreement on a certain ruleset, the CRP. So no, they didn't contribute in the same way as tournaments did.

[JT-Y]

Well... tournament play has been what kept BB alive all this years. So perhaps trying to maintain its health above the rest of the possible styles of play would be advisable.

Only because that's what we see if we're tournament players ourselves.
Don't take this the wrong way because I am a tournament player first and foremost myself.

BB is played in clubs and garages around the world in vast numbers. We don't know and never will just how widely played it is. In all the years it's been out of print GW has fielded huge numbers of questions about its return from people who play leagues at home and never go to tournaments. In my own league we have about 4 tournament players, but in the past 3 years alone I've had 42 people sign up and play at different times and to greater or lesser extents, only about 10 being newcomers to the game in that time.
You can go on forums like Warseer or Bolter & Chainsword or hobby blogs at any time and see evidence of league play going on the world over.
In terms of the new edition the total NAF membership, lapsed and active, equals less than 5% of the sales figur

Yes BB is a popular tournament game, probably the most popular, but it it would be a mistake to think that we who play BB tournaments are the only ones who play BB. Unfortunately it's a mistake frequently made.

And that's without even considering FUMBBL and Cyanide.

Like I say, don't take that the wrong way, I'm not looking for a debate and I'm not disagreeing that the BB tournament scene is huge and healthy. It's just an observation.

[Darkson]

I don't pretend to say that there are not more experienced coaches out there. But I volunteered my services and they were accepted.

Would have been nice to know that they wanted people's services - not saying I'd have put myself forwards (I have completely different ideas of where BB should have gone and should go), but there were plenty of people who could/should be.

[Heff]

Well here I am joining in. Firstly GW are doing well and I was at best a skeptic. I never wanted a new release cos I was/am terrified they will screw it up. That being said so far this is pretty good. I don't like the figures much (Other than the humans who I seem alone in liking) but that is more to do with the aesthetics of them to my eye rather than them being particularly bad. Happy with the new seasons rules (others are not) on the fence about d3MVP but then I play short leagues. Hate the new piling on which fixes a problem I don't have. Get the new seasons in fumbbl and I might play more there. I do not enjoy wasting an hour of my bloodbowl time playing a pointless game against a team with 800 more TV than me, all in 12 players who are honed to kill. Seasons rules may change that.

Also all you fluff mongers out there moaning about retiring players, well its fluffy. Don't see bobby charlton still playing do you? No some bastard made him retire! So you cannot get a mess of cookie cutter killers my heart bleeds.

On the other hand I am irritated by the typos and the errors, wrestle turns over if the ball carrier has it and you knock him down. Weeping blades is pointless and the fact that "Gutter runners don't do injuries" is fine until some lucky sod gets a 12 followed by a double then you have a blitzer who moves 9.

Then we have these two undercosted players with the overpowered kick rule. If feels like someone said "hey wouldn't it be cool if" and the response was "Awesome do it" rather than "interesting but what will a win focussed intelligent player do with this, when they do that will it unbalance the game? Lets have a think" There is a kernel of a good idea in here, but its not thought through and so we end up with this.

On a personal note I am also irritated by the "fan boys" (You know who you are) saying "You just don't like FUN, this will be fine" or "The game is supposed to be random you are just moaning" as if that is somehow a trump card and wins every argument. It is not, it is just an assertion.

[Milo]

Weeping blades is pointless and the fact that "Gutter runners don't do injuries" is fine until some lucky sod gets a 12 followed by a double then you have a blitzer who moves 9.

Yes, that could happen, but again, it only triggers on half the casualties, it only works half the time on them, and the most it does is convert a badly hurt to a miss next game. Has anyone actually seen Weeping Daggers trigger since the new game came out? Be honest. More than once?

I just think all of the angst over it is overblown.

[Manuel]

Weeping blades is pointless and the fact that "Gutter runners don't do injuries" is fine until some lucky sod gets a 12 followed by a double then you have a blitzer who moves 9.

Yes, that could happen, but again, it only triggers on half the casualties, it only works half the time on them, and the most it does is convert a badly hurt to a miss next game. Has anyone actually seen Weeping Daggers trigger since the new game came out? Be honest. More than once?

I just think all of the angst over it is overblown.

It is not angst. It is just irritation, because it was completely unnecessary.

It's a seemingly irrelevant but complex rule here, a justified but poorly designed change to a combo there, a "not intended to be used" star player there... and some errata that players would have spotted without any difficulty.

The general image is one of a poorly conducted job, sorry. If only they had kept the LRB6 as it was, print it, and THEN start producing whatever alterations they desired in the White Dwarfs... I really, really do not understand WHY they didn't.
I am not talking about miniature design, table size... that's second to rules for me, and I think they have to please their customers in that fields.

[spubbbba]

Weeping blades is pointless and the fact that "Gutter runners don't do injuries" is fine until some lucky sod gets a 12 followed by a double then you have a blitzer who moves 9.

Yes, that could happen, but again, it only triggers on half the casualties, it only works half the time on them, and the most it does is convert a badly hurt to a miss next game. Has anyone actually seen Weeping Daggers trigger since the new game came out? Be honest. More than once?

I just think all of the angst over it is overblown.

It is not angst. It is just irritation, because it was completely unnecessary.

Sad thing is I don't think it was even because the sculptor thought the dagger would be cool. That arm is a direct mirror of a clanrat arm, so they just took that and flipped it rather than making a new arm.

A bit of time was saved and for some reason that warranted a new rule. It also makes Skitter harder to convert as before all you needed to do was have a gutter with a prominent dagger. Now you need to make him suitably more impressive than the 4 mundane gutters, the huge tails on the new models make prehensile tail harder to model too.

[Joemanji]

Yes, that could happen, but again, [Weeping Blades] only triggers on half the casualties, it only works half the time on them, and the most it does is convert a badly hurt to a miss next game. Has anyone actually seen Weeping Daggers trigger since the new game came out? Be honest. More than once?

It isn't the occurrence rate that is concerning it is the design philosophy, particularly as this is the first sign we have of the style and understanding of the new team. WB adds nothing fun to the game, it is inherently spiteful as the gratuitous MNG you are inflicting doesn't impact the game in which the skill is used. But is does have a negative impact on your opponent's next game. In addition, skill use is optional and WB occurs after the choice to use the apothecary. So every single time I use WB I have to look my opponent in the eye and say 'I am using this skill that makes no difference at all to me just so you have less fun in your next game'.* It is a turn 16 foul that might be used on any turn of the game. Again, it is not the occurrence rate that is the concern here, it is what the design of this skill tells us about the understanding of whoever wrote it. Weeping Blades is entirely anti-fun, it only causes upset for no opportunity value in terms of skill, fun or immersion.

To return to the occurrence rate thing, suppose your work colleague tells you he is only going to sh*t in your coffee once this year. Is that okay because the other 1000 coffees you drink this year won't be soiled? Or would you rather it just didn't happen at all?

Note that I haven't even mentioned what a bad precedent it sets to design rules based on what the models look like. Especially given that BB players shouldn't be carrying blades to begin with!!!!

But I don't need to explain this to you as you are the expert GW has entrusted to understand it yourself.



*Aside: some people say here that in a league inflicting MNGs on your opponent's team is to your advantage. I am going to argue that it is not. You want the teams you have already played to be strong so that they can beat the teams you haven't played yet and weaken them for when you meet later.

[Heff]

Weeping blades is pointless and the fact that "Gutter runners don't do injuries" is fine until some lucky sod gets a 12 followed by a double then you have a blitzer who moves 9.

Yes, that could happen, but again, it only triggers on half the casualties, it only works half the time on them, and the most it does is convert a badly hurt to a miss next game. Has anyone actually seen Weeping Daggers trigger since the new game came out? Be honest. More than once?

I just think all of the angst over it is overblown.

Ok here is my take on why it is a bad rule, it is not even really mine, I think I heard it somewhere.

1 It has no effect on THIS game. I get 2spps if I BH you or kill you. so really I am just having another go at YOUR player for shits and giggles.

2 It can have a massive effect on the next game my OPPONENT plays. That does not help me but gives a boost to whoever he plays next. In a league I want to beat who I play but I have no interest really in helping the NEXT guy beat him, that just makes winning the league harder for me. Particularly if his next opponent is a guy with a chance of winning.

3 if I happen to be playing stunties then suddenly this multiplies. I will be attacking the little guys as much as I can anyway, now they are both +1 to injure and if I get em then there is a 50% chance that I can turn all those BH into something worse.

As to how many times it has an effect etc, frankly I do not care. When it does have an effect it will leave a bad taste in your mouth. So when my Ogre tripple skulls and you BH him, not only have I been subject to very unlucky dice but now you are going to punish me NEXT game as well. This is not "fun" in any sense of the word, this is actually bloody annoying, frustrating and turns a bad situation into a terrible one.

It is a shit rule done for a shit reason and THAT is why I hate it.