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 Post subject: Special Play Cards Cost
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:12 pm 
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I hear lots of complaints that the, former, 50k and 200k cards are treated the same. It just means everyone picks what used to be 200k cards and ignores the other deck. Stupid and unnecessary, like many of their changes, but not game breaking IMO.
I am more worried that the formerly 200k cards can be induced for 100k according to DZ1.
Admittedly, I never took a 200k card inducement because I didn't think they were worth it, but half the cost. . .

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 Post subject: Re: Special Play Cards Cost
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:40 pm 
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
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New cards will be released 4 februari.


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 Post subject: Re: Special Play Cards Cost
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:33 pm 
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CyberedElf wrote:
I hear lots of complaints that the, former, 50k and 200k cards are treated the same. It just means everyone picks what used to be 200k cards and ignores the other deck. Stupid and unnecessary, like many of their changes, but not game breaking IMO.
I am more worried that the formerly 200k cards can be induced for 100k according to DZ1.
Admittedly, I never took a 200k card inducement because I didn't think they were worth it, but half the cost. . .

Some of the cards depend on the match/team but most of the time it will be 8/10 good Mayhem cards and 2/10 good Random Event cards. "Ball Clone", "Friendly Fans" and the renamed "That Babes got Talent" have all been useful.

Three of the cards have had minor changes
*Magic Sponge no longer heals the Injury; just lets the player play the rest of the match
*Kid Gloves has a completely new effect
*Bad Habits only effects the first half not the whole match

The new rule of draw x keep x-1 means you can always select a Random Event card as your last pick and see if you get one of the good cards.


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 Post subject: Re: Special Play Cards Cost
 Post Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:03 am 
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Having played in a tournament yesterday that used the new cards (i.e. everyone had them you didn't buy the cards with team costs) I have to say I am totally against them in non-exhibition play. I have no problems with events which allow coaches to buy cards and so they use their TV and run the risk of getting good or bad ones. Having them used freely is too much though I found. In part it may be a sulk because I suffered at the hands of them - 'Bad Habits' played against me twice meant I had 2 games with no rerolls in the first half and then 'Mine' utterly flattening half my team as well. :(

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 Post subject: Re: Special Play Cards Cost
 Post Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:33 am 
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Mine is very hit or miss, literally. Had it in a couple of games recently, and knocked done a total of zero players, didn't roll a 4+ in 7 attempts.

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 Post subject: Re: Special Play Cards Cost
 Post Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:32 am 
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Wobert wrote:
Having played in a tournament yesterday that used the new cards (i.e. everyone had them you didn't buy the cards with team costs) I have to say I am totally against them in non-exhibition play. I have no problems with events which allow coaches to buy cards and so they use their TV and run the risk of getting good or bad ones. Having them used freely is too much though I found. In part it may be a sulk because I suffered at the hands of them - 'Bad Habits' played against me twice meant I had 2 games with no rerolls in the first half and then 'Mine' utterly flattening half my team as well. :(



Yikes!

I'm not surprised by that, and I'm not surprised by the NAF's rather polite but firm "we'll likely be having none of that" so far.

My own personal view of the cards, from the beginning of their re-introduction, has been that they were largely reincluded to hike up the random factor in games - in effect, to reduce "competitiveness": the scaling based on highest TV fits that - rarely is the higher TV team (or better coach) really wanting to increase the random factors in a game, even if there remains the possibility it may be to their benefit.

If you tie that in with the seasonal rules, then you have an additional impetus for people to control TV and stop runaways - even if you are much better than the rest of your TT league, season-upon-season, and able to retain players to greater effect than everyone else, there's an additional factor in re-drafting: "how wacky do I wish my games to be?".

Given the way BB has evolved over the years of LRB4 to and through CRP, I'm not surprised if most veteran coaches would want to house rule them out, but they do really mark a return/nod to the fun/wacky side of Blood Bowl, which might be better served to introduce newcomers to the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Special Play Cards Cost
 Post Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:52 pm 
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
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BB2016 is based on the fluff of blood bowl.

When the new cards will be released we will see new ones and maybe even better than the misc mayhem.

We have 3 series under the new rules. Major, the big majors with trophy reroll to winners, a minor with prizemoney and an elimination knock-out cup with prizemoney.

Depending how the cards turn out, we can adjust it in season 2, and use less in the majors. Keep them and tweak them for 'namegiven' tournaments. Goblin tribal leeg a bit more whacky than Spike Tournament.

I'm exited :-)


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 Post subject: Re: Special Play Cards Cost
 Post Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:44 pm 
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I'll just keep using the CRP cards.

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 Post subject: Re: Special Play Cards Cost
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:47 pm 
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Darkson wrote:
I'll just keep using the CRP cards.


Me too.


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 Post subject: Re: Special Play Cards Cost
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:32 am 
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We basically make it so you must take at least ONE "random event" card as one of the two free cards.

When you buy a card you can take which ever cards you want.

In general I think it is a good change that you get these cards in every game. I presume one of the main reasons for this is that they want to reduce the stalling game which otherwise are so common in Blood Bowl. You will still see the more experienced and good coaches win games and tournaments, skill is still a major factor.

In my opinion Blood Bowl is not really a very serious game anyway... it's more important that we have fun while we play. If I get totally screwed by bad cards or dice (or combination of the two) it does not really bother me. What bothers me is when I make obvious mistakes that cost me a game.

If you really want to play something that is fair and competitive you should play something like Chess. Games with allot of dice rolls are never really truly competitive anyway, especially not games as complex as Blood Bowl. No matter if you use the cards or not if you have two really good coaches it is often the dice that decide the outcome in the end anyway (if none make any real mistakes).


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 Post subject: Re: Special Play Cards Cost
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:14 pm 
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Point of the thread was to discuss COST of the cards as inducements, but that is completely lost. So I will further the digression.
Jorgen_CAB wrote:
If you really want to play something that is fair and competitive you should play something like Chess. Games with allot of dice rolls are never really truly competitive anyway, especially not games as complex as Blood Bowl.

I often hear things like "If you want a serious competitive game, play chess." One of the other appealing aspects of Blood Bowl that chess does not have is risk management. To have risk management, you need some level of randomness.
I do see the potential of anti-stall involved in cards. I tried to get my league to use them for a season, even if it was just to prove we never wanted to again. I'm biased, but I wanted to be able to base my bias on some experience. I wanted to have the SPC cards for season games, then exclude free cards in playoffs.
The extent of acceptable randomness depends on how acceptable it is for the better player to lose. Depending on the league format, some games matter more than others. (As much as the outcome of a "game" can matter.)
Excluding SPC does also affect the balance of teams. Some teams can respond well to more mayhem (i. e. Wood Elves) and some can't (i. e. Khemri).

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 Post subject: Re: Special Play Cards Cost
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:33 pm 
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CyberedElf wrote:
Point of the thread was to discuss COST of the cards as inducements, but that is completely lost. So I will further the digression.
Jorgen_CAB wrote:
If you really want to play something that is fair and competitive you should play something like Chess. Games with allot of dice rolls are never really truly competitive anyway, especially not games as complex as Blood Bowl.

I often hear things like "If you want a serious competitive game, play chess." One of the other appealing aspects of Blood Bowl that chess does not have is risk management. To have risk management, you need some level of randomness.
I do see the potential of anti-stall involved in cards. I tried to get my league to use them for a season, even if it was just to prove we never wanted to again. I'm biased, but I wanted to be able to base my bias on some experience. I wanted to have the SPC cards for season games, then exclude free cards in playoffs.
The extent of acceptable randomness depends on how acceptable it is for the better player to lose. Depending on the league format, some games matter more than others. (As much as the outcome of a "game" can matter.)
Excluding SPC does also affect the balance of teams. Some teams can respond well to more mayhem (i. e. Wood Elves) and some can't (i. e. Khemri).


I did not really mean that Blood Bowl can't be played competitively. There surely is a big difference between a good and a decent player in terms of who are more likely to win. I just meant that Blood Bowl are still a rather luck based game and once two good coaches play it is more often than not the dice that decide the game.

Risk assessment will only take you so far.

With a bit more randomness I can start play more normal teams again in our local league and not relegate myself to the lower tier teams such as Ogres, Vampires or Goblins or other gimmick team setups.

For me personally the randomness brings back some "fun" into the game while still keeping the good players winning more often than not.


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 Post subject: Re: Special Play Cards Cost
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:43 pm 
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@cyberedelf: What was the overall feeling of your players regarding the Special Play cards and their cost? I haven't played with them yet, but I don't think I'm too crazy about the 'each Coach gets X random cards' approach. I prefer the more strategic elements of the game and there is already enough pain in bad die rolls/kickoffs, without adding additional random events. That's just me and my initial observations though, when we get around to playing our first game I plan on using all the new rules plus the cards to see how it goes.

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 Post subject: Re: Special Play Cards Cost
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:07 pm 
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We just started our new season "trying to use the new rules." In quotes, since the group voted to modified several things back to the old rules. In this case, the group chose not to use free SPC and no one has had enough TV difference to use them as inducements. I managed to convince the group that two coaches can use free SPC if they both agree. We will see how it turns out. I don't expect many people to agree to use them based on conversations.

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 Post subject: Re: Special Play Cards Cost
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:36 pm 
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Our league is using the cards this season. Each player pulls two cards at random. Let me just say I do not really like the cards, but many of the guys I play with are big 3rd addition fans (before my time with BB). My impression of 3rd addition fans is they really do not mind losing a game if the reason why is funny enough. I managed a tie (my Chaos dwarves vs wood elfs) last week with a turn 8 score because I played the Clone Ball card around turn five. My opponent thought it was hilarious.

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