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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone season 2, what might be
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:17 pm 
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Babs wrote:
My big bugbear is not #3, but the greyspace between #1 and #2. For example, I received an email about Grak and Crumbleberry, telling us that he was effectively in Category #2. What makes this confusing and annoying is the catch all clause at the beginning of all additional rules in the Blood Bowl rulebook (beginning of page 22) stating that you can basically do whatever you like, and muddying the whole thing:
Quote:
All of the following extra rules are optional. This means that both coaches must agree which (if any) they are going to use before the match starts.


This makes for standardised league play - let alone tournaments, a confusing affair that needs clarifying in the tournament and league rules pack at best.


Was it your biggest bugbear when it was the first line on pg16 of the CRP and was the same in all the previous LRB's right back to the Handbook and even before that, or is it a new bugbear now that it's exactly the same in BB2016?

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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone season 2, what might be
 Post Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:52 pm 
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JT-Y wrote:
Was it your biggest bugbear when it was the first line on pg16 of the CRP and was the same in all the previous LRB's right back to the Handbook and even before that, or is it a new bugbear now that it's exactly the same in BB2016?


Like it or not, he has a point. The development of this ruleset leaves too much open to "agreement with your opponent". And the some of the "fixed core rules" obviously lack proper testing in their design.

If you want to have an homogenized international tournament scenario, you have to ignore such optional rules. Gran and Crumbleberry are an obvious example. And the same goes for the referees.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone season 2, what might be
 Post Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:38 am 
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Manuel wrote:
JT-Y wrote:
Was it your biggest bugbear when it was the first line on pg16 of the CRP and was the same in all the previous LRB's right back to the Handbook and even before that, or is it a new bugbear now that it's exactly the same in BB2016?


Like it or not, he has a point. The development of this ruleset leaves too much open to "agreement with your opponent". And the some of the "fixed core rules" obviously lack proper testing in their design.

If you want to have an homogenized international tournament scenario, you have to ignore such optional rules. Gran and Crumbleberry are an obvious example. And the same goes for the referees.


I think what JT-Y is suggesting is that the clause about everything being optional has ALWAYS been in existence. It's not fair to knock the current ruleset because it has this clause, if you're given every other version of the rules a pass for having the exact same verbiage. And I'll point out the same with regards to the referee rules in White Dwarf -- Blood Bowl has a long history of extra optional rules posted in White Dwarf/Citadel Journal/Blood Bowl magazine, and those have always been optional, assuming one or both coaches even have a copy of the document in question.

G&C are something of a new animal, since they are -- to the best of my knowledge -- the first exclusive Blood Bowl miniatures which come with their own rules. But everyone who has the models should have the rules, so I think they would fall under category 3.

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 Post subject: Re: Mystic force
 Post Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:58 pm 
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Please note I'm not trying to correct you, just add information that is already known.

Mystic Force wrote:
I think on reflection 1 team release a month would be on the fast end. Releases must be frequent enough to sustain interest, while far enough apart to add excitement. But I think 2-3 teams a year is too slow. At that rate new recruits to the game will start to look elsewhere for miniatures to fill in the gap, that would be a bad outcome for GW. Between team releases they will likely release other stuff, there are plenty of star players, theamed boards and special play cards to keep a regular drip. So maybe a team every 2 months with a sprinkling of other goodies. Given the time lines of design and production the progress of various teams to be released must be underway already.


Dwarves are due out Feb 4th, and people who attended the big tournament at WHW were told that Goblins were coming soon in the queue in the spring timeframe (I think I heard April.) That would be two teams released in 2017 already by approximately April. I think it's very unlikely that we get less than 5-6 new teams in 2017 (I'm talking minis, not rules here). Based on the success so far, it seems likely that GW would bring in additional sculptors to increase their output in mid-late 2017 (speculation on my part only.)

Also worthy of note -- if Goblins and a plastic Troll are released, Underworld teams could be produced from existing minis. (Orc teams would also be fully kitted out.) We know Humans and Orcs will be available separate from the box set at some point, and there's a plastic Ogre on the way. It wouldn't take a ton of new figures to make Chaos and Chaos Pact. I think with some clever prioritization of team releases, we could see a much larger number of playable teams available from a smaller number of actual team releases.

Mystic Force wrote:
I think that some of the rosters will be different from what we see in Teams of Legend when they are released in a Deathzone supplement.


People at WHW were told that Goblins would have two new "secret weapons". That's a definite roster change.

Mystic Force wrote:
As for timing on DZ 2, I think maybe a year might be the right wait.That way some feedback from actual real world play might be able to creep in. But GW have historically not been the best at that, a whole other thread that one.... Again time frame of production might be the limiting factor on that one. It would be a very strange decision to release a raft of new rosters before you could play all of the DZ 1 teams with new minis. So I expect release schedule to be our best indication of when we will see DZ 2.


If you put the two pieces of data above together (Goblins around April, new roster changes to Goblins), you could probably reasonably assume that DZ2 is scheduled for somewhere around there. That means roughly five months (Nov - April) between DZ releases. Not sure if they'll keep up with that, because they are also planning to bring out some other specialist games and that may cause their development resources to be split, but until we hear otherwise, I think that's a reasonable timeframe to expect. (Always subject to further information, though, because two points of data is not really enough to project a meaningful trendline.)

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 Post subject: Mystic force
 Post Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:34 pm 
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Don't worry you are not correcting me, just making me more informed. I failed to comprehend the full explanation of the arrival of goblins soon. That rather goes against my theory. So I retract all that part of my thinking. Personally I think thats not the best buisness decision for making money out of this game but thats upto them.

The best thing that Milo says is that Bloodbowl has been a sucess. Which means that we will keep getting more goodies. On another forum I has said the only way I would buy anything else from GW was if Bloodbowl was rereleased not expecting that to happen. And it was not a statement against them as a company, but more they offered nothing I wanted after killing Warhammer. No mattet all the tgings 3rd parties did to keep the game alive there was always a question mark when the publisher didnt support it.

Back on topic, do people expect DZ 2 etc... to fix rules over time? Will we get a better version of problem skills eg Pilling On, without re-litigating that can of worms. Any other thoughts on the rules to come down the pipeline.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone season 2, what might be
 Post Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:38 am 
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The clause existed in the CRP/LRB6, but there was common existence of a set of comprehensive rules, that everyone could agree with (and did). The only discussion needed to be about Underworld, Chaos Pact / Renegade and Slann being included. It was a complete package, and clear delineation between official rules and clearly unofficial fan made stuff.

Now, however, there are a whole load of rules that need a call made on them:

* Piling on - in or out
* 4 minute turn rule and Illegal Procedure were commonly called out prior, so a moot point - but still in this 'maybe' space.
* Exclusive web order and 'exclusive event' Special play cards (such as the one from Bugmans Full Beard) that only select people have, the rest don't.
* Odd Star Players with odd pricing, odd teams they can play for (all) and even odder skills (E.g. Without loner, and an additional new skill).

So it's not that the clause didn't exist before, but that rules are now falling into this clause in a way that they never have had to previously. Does that clarify why this is an issue JT-Y?

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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone season 2, what might be
 Post Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:14 pm 
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From what I remember of the Full Beard cup (memory was hazy at the time, let alone 3 months later):
* DZ2 will be out April-ish, as will plastic gobbos. DZ2 will have rules for goblins, underworld, and pact, I think stadiums were mentioned as well, possibly more league stuff.
* Elves will be the next team.
I think that was about it tbh, other than what has already been posted up from other events

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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone season 2, what might be
 Post Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:15 pm 
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Babs wrote:
The clause existed in the CRP/LRB6, but there was common existence of a set of comprehensive rules, that everyone could agree with (and did). The only discussion needed to be about Underworld, Chaos Pact / Renegade and Slann being included. It was a complete package, and clear delineation between official rules and clearly unofficial fan made stuff.

Now, however, there are a whole load of rules that need a call made on them:

* Piling on - in or out
* 4 minute turn rule and Illegal Procedure were commonly called out prior, so a moot point - but still in this 'maybe' space.
* Exclusive web order and 'exclusive event' Special play cards (such as the one from Bugmans Full Beard) that only select people have, the rest don't.
* Odd Star Players with odd pricing, odd teams they can play for (all) and even odder skills (E.g. Without loner, and an additional new skill).

So it's not that the clause didn't exist before, but that rules are now falling into this clause in a way that they never have had to previously. Does that clarify why this is an issue JT-Y?


But Babs, these aren't rules that generally need to be decided by the players, because Blood Bowl has two important fixtures: League Commissioner and Tournament Organizer. The decisions about what rules are official and what isn't is left to those people to decide. I have never seen a league NOR a tournament that did not have a clearly designated set of rules. Above the Tournament Organizers are also the NAF, who -- rightly and smartly, I think -- set a common ruleset that are required for NAF sanctioning.

Yet despite that, there is a wide variety of tournament rulesets, from Resurrection to not, to different kickoff tables, variations on Star Players, etc. I've played in a tournament that used Special Play Cards. I've heard of tournaments where every team MUST have a Wight on the roster (Splatterday Wight Fever). Leagues have as much variety -- some leagues still use old 3rd Ed cards, some use LRB6 or BB2016 cards, some others don't use them at all. Some leagues don't use Star Players at all, others allow you to roster them permanently. (I'm even playing in a league that gives discounted pricing on permanent Stars because they like the higher power level they bring.)

These aren't problems because the ruleset is discussed, decided upon, and announced in advance. And BB2016 will be no different. Some leagues will ban Piling On -- some did even before BB2016 came out. Some leagues will ban Grak and Crumbleberry, some won't -- but most of them will never even see them appear, because the minis themselves will be rare.

I think the one thing I agree with on this is that there should be a complete archive of all of the rules that GW has put out so that everyone can be AWARE of the rules, even if they choose not to play by them. I think right now they are worried about impacting sales by putting up all the rules (although I don't think that should apply to things like the cards and G&C), but I'm hopeful that there will be a unified document at some point.

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 Post subject: Re: Mystic force
 Post Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:54 pm 
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Milo wrote:
Please note I'm not trying to correct you, just add information that is already known.

Dwarves are due out Feb 4th, and people who attended the big tournament at WHW were told that Goblins were coming soon in the queue in the spring timeframe (I think I heard April.) That would be two teams released in 2017 already by approximately April. I think it's very unlikely that we get less than 5-6 new teams in 2017 (I'm talking minis, not rules here). Based on the success so far, it seems likely that GW would bring in additional sculptors to increase their output in mid-late 2017 (speculation on my part only.)


Thanks for the info, Milo. I think I would still be pretty surprised at seeing 5-6 teams released in 2017. Then again, I came to BB late, and have no idea what GW's release schedules are like. Most games I've seen, don't crank out material that fast.

If we get 6 teams this year, that's quite a bit of coverage. Dwarves and Goblins on the horizon. So, I would guess Wood Elves, Nurgle, Halflings, Undead (Shambling), and Lizardmen. Probably dead wrong. Some sort of Elves, I think would be likely this year. If a Tree gets released, then Halfling/Elf teams could be filled.With a Nurgle Star Player, you'd think Nurgle would be next in line. Seems like they would want to do one of the Undead. Debated on Lizardmen, Norse, and Amazons, but lizards would be the most dire need for models. You can proxy the Human team models for Norse/Amazons, if you really have to.

My dream list for 6 teams would be Fimir (keep dreaming!), Dark Elf, Undead (Shambling), and Chaos Dwarves. And we already know the other two we're getting regardless. I haven't really played Chaos Dwarves, but I love the minis. I would maybe sub them with High Elves, a team I have played, and enjoyed.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone season 2, what might be
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:24 am 
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Quote:
But Babs, these aren't rules that generally need to be decided by the players, because Blood Bowl has two important fixtures: League Commissioner and Tournament Organizer. The decisions about what rules are official and what isn't is left to those people to decide.


Precisely - I was talking about these people making these calls, but now the amount of 'deciding' by the Tournament Organiser or League Commish is much more than before, and additionally involves a much more detailed set of information, in a variety of locations, to determine.

Please see I've not posted a comprehensive list of these decisions either.

Quote:
* Piling on - in or out
* Exclusive web order and 'exclusive event' Special play cards (such as the one from Bugmans Full Beard, and those from Blitzmania) that only select people have, the rest don't.
* Odd Star Players with odd pricing, odd teams they can play for (all) and even odder skills (E.g. Without loner, and an additional new skill).
* Referee model rules
* 2nd Edition Star Players sold at Bugman's Cup, but not listed in Deathzone Season I
* Snow pitch rules
* 4 minute turn rule and Illegal Procedure were commonly called out prior, so a moot point - but still in this 'maybe' space.

...and this is only so far in the release of rules and options. Part of my issue is that this does not seem to be the end of such 'exceptions' to be released, such as new exceptional skills, Stadium rules coming etc. etc.

This is a far cry from simply stipulating in one sentence that Slann, Pact and Underworld teams were in, and then explaining team starting TV and the other 'usualities' that is still required (can teams start with skills, if so, how much and what type etc. etc.)

Now perhaps I'm being picky, but I don't think the impact of additional complexity to the Blood Bowl landscape has been significantly considered.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone season 2, what might be
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:47 am 
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Babs wrote:
Quote:
But Babs, these aren't rules that generally need to be decided by the players, because Blood Bowl has two important fixtures: League Commissioner and Tournament Organizer. The decisions about what rules are official and what isn't is left to those people to decide.


Precisely - I was talking about these people making these calls, but now the amount of 'deciding' by the Tournament Organiser or League Commish is much more than before, and additionally involves a much more detailed set of information, in a variety of locations, to determine.


Yeah, I guess. But are we really talking about THAT significant a burden?

Babs wrote:
Please see I've not posted a comprehensive list of these decisions either.

Quote:
* Piling on - in or out
* Exclusive web order and 'exclusive event' Special play cards (such as the one from Bugmans Full Beard, and those from Blitzmania) that only select people have, the rest don't.
* Odd Star Players with odd pricing, odd teams they can play for (all) and even odder skills (E.g. Without loner, and an additional new skill).
* Referee model rules
* 2nd Edition Star Players sold at Bugman's Cup, but not listed in Deathzone Season I
* Snow pitch rules
* 4 minute turn rule and Illegal Procedure were commonly called out prior, so a moot point - but still in this 'maybe' space.

...and this is only so far in the release of rules and options. Part of my issue is that this does not seem to be the end of such 'exceptions' to be released, such as new exceptional skills, Stadium rules coming etc. etc.

This is a far cry from simply stipulating in one sentence that Slann, Pact and Underworld teams were in, and then explaining team starting TV and the other 'usualities' that is still required (can teams start with skills, if so, how much and what type etc. etc.)


Let me take a stab at it. Here's what I expect to become the standard for tournament rules:

"Special Play Cards are not used. Star Players available are as per CRP rules pack. All pitches use standard kick-off table results. No special referees are allowed for this event."

That LITERALLY took me 30 seconds to come up with. In fact, many tournaments have their own customized kick-off tables that probably took far longer to put together than these four sentences did. Yes, I agree there is somewhat more work to be done -- but I disagree that it imposes a significant burden on anyone doing it. Furthermore, most tournaments are NAF sanctioned, and the NAF is taking care of most of this by publicly announcing their recommended rules pack for 2017 tournaments.

Leagues will have more decisions to make anyways, since most of the rules are more league-centric than tournament. But still -- how much additional work is that, and how many League Commissioners don't do a lot of this anyways? These rules just give them MORE options to use.

I don't dispute your point that more decisions must be made. I definitely think having a unified list of changes would be good to have. I just don't think it's as significant a problem as you are making it out to be. There have ALWAYS been a variety of extra rules published in White Dwarfs and CJs and BB Mags; Commissioners have always had a wide selection of choices to make.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone season 2, what might be
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:34 am 
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I'll jump in on both sides a little.
Previous editions had a lot of optional rules, in time we (as a community) got used to a basic set and considered them normal. In time this will happen again. Just growing pains, so to speak.
Milo wrote:
"Special Play Cards are not used. Star Players available are as per CRP rules pack. All pitches use standard kick-off table results. No special referees are allowed for this event."
"I want to use the Winter Pitch weather table, can I?" It's not as simple as you implied. Most of the people here know what all has come out. Expecting every TO to be aware of all GW released options for BB is a tough demand. NAF can not be relied upon to maintain all their own rules if the TOs don't stay up to date on everything. (I have seen NAF tournaments with Simyin. The tournament description, on the NAF website, stated they would be reported to NAF as Orc. WTF?)
The burden isn't writing a few lines to include all the optional rules, it's the requirement to know what all optional rules have been published. Plenty of people don't know about Grak/Crumbleberry. It is only a small wording change to not exclude them. But a big deal if someone showed up and wanted to play them as published. If the TO never heard of them, that's a problem. Since these figures/rules weren't sold in America, I'm betting the VAST majority of American players would have no clue about them.

Not that I have any desire for GW to quit BB again, but as long as they are actively publishing new options, this concern will be a problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone season 2, what might be
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:56 am 
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Quote:
"Special Play Cards are not used. Star Players available are as per CRP rules pack. All pitches use standard kick-off table results. No special referees are allowed for this event."


So Milo, you're advocating an 'Ostrich myth' approach - ignoring everything that is new, including Guffle Pusmaw?

Note you in one fell swoop ignored Grak & Crumbleberry, the 'old but new again' players such as Rasta Tailspike, and all Special Play Cards despite the clear intent by Andy to reintroduce them to the game formally.

You also introduced a _SIXTH_ place players must look to know the rules, the CRP star player list.

Do you wish to ignore Special Play Cards because it's too complicated to rule on which special event cards are in or out, because it's a comment on them not being balanced or because they are unfair, depending on a one off choice of cards involving chance?

I do, however, think some of this discussion is a little moot, since the NAF has designed a comprehensive set of rules for tournaments to use here: http://www.thenaf.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/NAFRulesFeb17.pdf but this is something that is designed to overcome these shortcomings by the NAF, not Games Workshop / ForgeWorld.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone season 2, what might be
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:25 pm 
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Maybe it`s just me, but "No Special Play Cards or Star Players allowed", didn`t take me more than ten seconds either. Add that, all discussions halted.

Quote:
I do, however, think some of this discussion is a little moot, since the NAF has designed a comprehensive set of rules for tournaments to use here: http://www.thenaf.net/wp-content/upload ... sFeb17.pdf but this is something that is designed to overcome these shortcomings by the NAF, not Games Workshop / ForgeWorld.


Well, that`s for tournamentoriented players. Nice if it like it that way, I like it different. Now what? As much as the NAF did....it is STILL an UNofficial scource. How many games have I played in leagues with people, that couldn`t think further than a season...due to this particular ruleset...

Now don`t get this wrong, I`m not trying to aggitate something here, but merely stating, that yout individual comprehension of the games is indeed very much this: individual. Everybody like to live Blood Bowl in their own way. Be tolerant to all of them, as they don`t forbid you to do anything you don`t want to too.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone season 2, what might be
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:40 pm 
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Babs wrote:
Quote:
"Special Play Cards are not used. Star Players available are as per CRP rules pack. All pitches use standard kick-off table results. No special referees are allowed for this event."


So Milo, you're advocating an 'Ostrich myth' approach - ignoring everything that is new, including Guffle Pusmaw?

Note you in one fell swoop ignored Grak & Crumbleberry, the 'old but new again' players such as Rasta Tailspike, and all Special Play Cards despite the clear intent by Andy to reintroduce them to the game formally.

You also introduced a _SIXTH_ place players must look to know the rules, the CRP star player list.

Do you wish to ignore Special Play Cards because it's too complicated to rule on which special event cards are in or out, because it's a comment on them not being balanced or because they are unfair, depending on a one off choice of cards involving chance?


First off, Babs, I'm not ADVOCATING anything. I'm simply saying that League Commissioners and Tournament Organizers can rather easily dictate rules for their events that are clear, concise, and unequivocal. The rules I suggested would essentially result in a CRP-like tournament event. As most tournament organizers are pretty happy with this, that's why I used them as an example. I'm not trying to say that those are the "best" way to run an event, just that it's not a major burden on event organizers to specify what the rules of the event are (event being used generically here to include both tournaments and leagues.)

And yes, in one fell swoop, I eliminated a number of sources of controversy. Yes, I did bring in the CRP list of star players, but until the rest of the Death Zones are released, there are a dearth of star players available for some teams, so I expect that the CRP Star Player list will still be pretty standard. Again, many tournaments don't allow Star Players or only allow Star Players for tier 3 teams, so this isn't a big deal.

Babs wrote:
I do, however, think some of this discussion is a little moot, since the NAF has designed a comprehensive set of rules for tournaments to use here: http://www.thenaf.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/NAFRulesFeb17.pdf but this is something that is designed to overcome these shortcomings by the NAF, not Games Workshop / ForgeWorld.


Yes, I've already played a tournament with these rules. I think it's a perfectly acceptable role for an INTERNATIONAL TOURNAMENT SANCTIONING group to be providing this sort of guidance to Tournament Organizers. I already mentioned that the NAF is providing a smart service to Tournament Organizers by doing so.

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