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 Post subject: Re: Goblin Roster DZ2
 Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 10:52 am 
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What is sure is everyone of us has his perfect BB in mind, and is impossible that all of us will be happy. Always will be people angry with the changes and others happy. And, as I said, while the core of the rules are the same, I will be happy that the game remain almost the same.

Milo wrote:
I can understand why you'd want to remove Loner. That would have made Goblins a much better roster. But that wasn't our intent.

Man, that hurt me :lol: That could be the small change that made goblins team great. Fair enough if it wasn't your intent :x :pissed: :wink: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Goblin Roster DZ2
 Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 10:57 am 
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dreamscreator wrote:
First said that I love play with goblins. And what I want is more balance between ALL teams. How many NAF tournaments has been win by stunty teams, or even Vampires, Underworld, Chaos Pact, etc. Would be easy try to balance all the teams a bit more with a small changes or with new positional.


I think that's the job of tournament organizers, if they want to hold an event where every team has an equal chance of winning. From what I've seen, most tournaments do at least a decent job of this.

Can anyone cite, in the Blood Bowl background, any truly GOOD goblin teams? It's been pretty well-documented that Goblins ARE NOT GOOD AT BLOOD BOWL. Altering the core rules and team roster to all of a sudden make them good would be a pretty drastic shift in both game play and storytelling, and BB2016 is not trying to achieve that result. (I'm not trying to say that game play is beholden to the background -- but wouldn't it ruffle feathers and feel out of place if GW didn't consider the background at all? Can you imagine Dwarves all starting with 4 AG, catch, pass and dodge? It could be made balanced, maybe by removing Block and Tackle, but then they wouldn't FEEL like Dwarves.)

Now, if a TO wants to give all Goblin teams a couple of extra skills, or a free bribe, or something along those lines to make Goblins more competitive, then so be it. I think the world of Blood Bowl certainly has room for a tournament that has been so infiltrated by those stinking, cheating greenskins that they managed to bribe, blackmail or rig the event to give themselves the upper hand.

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 Post subject: Re: Goblin Roster DZ2
 Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 10:59 am 
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Yeah that's fair. I'm just trying to be honest and give constructive feedback. If there are great things in the new book I will also be the first to say. Its nothing personal :)

I agree with your design theories. you are making changes that should be fun and that do not rock the boat. This is very sensible. Narrowing tiers type game design would go down very very badly i agree 100% with your design intentions.

Hooligan just reads as pointless which is a shame is all. As I said before its not a huge problem, just missed opportunity to bring something fun to the team. Sighting taking pass block as a good example of how to use the player though is more than a bit daft. That anyone would pay 20k for pass block in a gobo team is a nonsense really. It also should not be recommended as its very poor advice.

Also removing loner from goblins is not a huge buff. It just helps negate the occasions in which a game is lost in one dice throw because you have no reliable first move,no way to block, Troll blocks, skulls out, game over. this happens too frequently with gobos. flings get the big guy blocks with rr they are better than goblins but still around tier 3, albeit ever so slightly above, but I dont hear people complaining about this. some data -

TEAM,, Games,, win percentage,, Cas for/cas against
Halfling,, 14919,, 37.41,, 2.39/3.62
Goblin,, 18799,, 31.9,, 2.21/3.23
Ogre,, 14179,, 27.91,, 2.96/3.55

Giving them trolls without loner is not going to increase their win percentage above 40%. I've played with goblins with no loner on trolls its a very small buff but just gets rid of the "pointless games" occurring.

for those that want to see the tiers -

3 Tier 1.5 (50% to 40%) - Chaos Pact, Slann, Underworld
1 Tier 2 (45% to 35%) - Vampire
3 Tier 3 (35% to 30%) - Ogre, Goblin, Halfling
Everyone else is Tier 1.


P.S. yes competitive goblins and flings are possible.
Anyway, that's enough from me :)


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 Post subject: Re: Goblin Roster DZ2
 Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 11:33 am 
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Too many chefs...

Or not enough?

Mmmm


I will take this opportunity to say if you do fancy a goblin team at a NAF Sanctioned event with lonerless Trolls to compete against the "Big Boys" then get yourself to Foul Bowl on the 24th June. You can use Doubles to remove skills ;)

Foul Bowl, its in the Pain!

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 Post subject: Re: Goblin Roster DZ2
 Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 11:43 am 
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garion wrote:
Yeah that's fair. I'm just trying to be honest and give constructive feedback. If there are great things in the new book I will also be the first to say. Its nothing personal :)

I agree with your design theories. you are making changes that should be fun and that do not rock the boat. This is very sensible. Narrowing tiers type game design would go down very very badly i agree 100% with your design intentions.

Hooligan just reads as pointless which is a shame is all. As I said before its not a huge problem, just missed opportunity to bring something fun to the team. Sighting taking pass block as a good example of how to use the player though is more than a bit daft. That anyone would pay 20k for pass block in a gobo team is a nonsense really. It also should not be recommended as its very poor advice.


I'm not trying to take anything personally. It's good feedback, from a competitive perspective. I agree that the 'Ooligan doesn't make the team significantly better in a tournament or seriously competitive league. Maybe it would even hurt them. (Although the first game where you get a +3 on the Pitch Invasion rolls may change your mind.) I just dispute that this is the only way to play the Goblins.

Before you call me a bit daft, though, please note that I didn't say it was a GOOD way to play the 'Ooligan:

Milo wrote:
Yet I think some coaches would enjoy having a Pass Blocking Disturbing Presence with Dodge and Stunty, now only 6 SPPs away.


I said some coaches would enjoy it. It could be fun. And that's because Goblins are not generally considered a competitive team. Many coaches play them because the enjoy the background. Some coaches play them because they enjoy the opportunities to model and customize an interesting team. Other coaches play them because they just need a break from competitive play and would enjoy a bit of a lark. If the rules can support those players also, without hurting the Goblins' standing in competitive play, is that such a bad thing? I don't think so.

I'll be perfectly honest here. I don't play Blood Bowl because of the rules. Oh, they're GOOD rules, don't get me wrong -- and when I've been involved in them, I've been committed to keeping them that way. It's a nice mix of strategy and fortune, and they've been revised over decades to get better and better. But I don't remember the details of all the scoring drives in the last tournament I went to. I remember Pippi Goblinslayer, who in 2493 triple-skulled against my Goblin and broke his leg. I remember scoring on defense with a Wardancer against a team full of Dwarves. I remember a season where my "anything-but-a-1" apothecary failed so many times, I was certain he was taking the drugs instead of administering them. I remember the Dwarf who got a contract because he threw the ball in well from the sidelines, but got killed and resurrected as a zombie before we could even learn his name. (He remained "Talented Dead Dwarf" on the Undead roster for the rest of the season. I remember the epic, the wacky, the oddball, the stories I can't stop telling other coaches. That's why I love Blood Bowl. And I think that someday that 'Ooligan could appear in some of those stories.

I love the idea that, even before GW's official 'Ooligan mini has been seen, people are finding all sorts of alternate miniatures to represent him. One coach on FB is talking about making his 'Ooligan a naked streaker -- that's certainly a disturbing presence in my mind.

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 Post subject: Re: Goblin Roster DZ2
 Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 11:55 am 
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What I don't get is why Disturbing Presence instead, for example, of Dirty Player?

That's made more sense to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Goblin Roster DZ2
 Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:12 pm 
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Who's Pippi Goblinlayer, and does he ave loner?

I think the Ooligan deseves something more fighty than disturbing presence. Hardly anyone throws the ball anyway, as Garion and Dreamscreator of said, hes a waste of tv. The plus 1 fame is alright and still in tune wifh Goblins random abilitys, i like that.

Someone like me will take him though just for that one game when i roll double fans on kick off and roll pitch invasion. Its not very likely but it might happen one day.

3 more days till we find out what Swoop does :D

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 Post subject: Re: Goblin Roster DZ2
 Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:21 pm 
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frogboy wrote:
Who's Pippi Goblinlayer, and does he ave loner?


Actually, Pippi was a Grashnak clone back in the early 3rd Edition days of BB. He didn't have loner, but his coach also didn't have any remaining rerolls. He should have known better than to make that 3-die Blitz.

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 Post subject: Re: Goblin Roster DZ2
 Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:29 pm 
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dreamscreator wrote:
What I don't get is why Disturbing Presence instead, for example, of Dirty Player?

That's made more sense to me.


All I can say is that it didn't fit the concept of the player being designed. We weren't out to create a Dirty Player goblin. The 'Ooligan is a distruptive force on the field. He's not meant to be simply a Dirty Player.

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 Post subject: Re: Goblin Roster DZ2
 Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:34 pm 
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Milo wrote:
I remember the epic, the wacky, the oddball, the stories I can't stop telling other coaches. That's why I love Blood Bowl. And I think that someday that 'Ooligan could appear in some of those stories.

I love the idea that, even before GW's official 'Ooligan mini has been seen, people are finding all sorts of alternate miniatures to represent him.


I'm not sure I understand your point, Milo, since you could say the same about any other position.


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 Post subject: Re: Goblin Roster DZ2
 Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:40 pm 
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Moraiwe wrote:
Milo wrote:
I remember the epic, the wacky, the oddball, the stories I can't stop telling other coaches. That's why I love Blood Bowl. And I think that someday that 'Ooligan could appear in some of those stories.

I love the idea that, even before GW's official 'Ooligan mini has been seen, people are finding all sorts of alternate miniatures to represent him.


I'm not sure I understand your point, Milo, since you could say the same about any other position.


I thinnk he's just saying he likes the "build a narrative" side of the game and likes that people are finding cool miniatures that could work as a hooligan like a Goblin herder with cattle prod. Which is driving the stories of their game, and he looks forward hearing the tales.


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 Post subject: Re: Goblin Roster DZ2
 Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 2:07 pm 
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garion wrote:
Moraiwe wrote:
Milo wrote:
I remember the epic, the wacky, the oddball, the stories I can't stop telling other coaches. That's why I love Blood Bowl. And I think that someday that 'Ooligan could appear in some of those stories.

I love the idea that, even before GW's official 'Ooligan mini has been seen, people are finding all sorts of alternate miniatures to represent him.


I'm not sure I understand your point, Milo, since you could say the same about any other position.


I thinnk he's just saying he likes the "build a narrative" side of the game and likes that people are finding cool miniatures that could work as a hooligan like a Goblin herder with cattle prod. Which is driving the stories of their game, and he looks forward hearing the tales.


Er, yeah. That's it in a nutshell. Before anyone else says it, I'm not saying that a desire for narrative is driving the rules creation. I'm just saying that that has historically always been a part of Blood Bowl. The CRP stripped some of that out, and BB2016 is reintroducing some of it as optional rules, and I'm enjoying and appreciating that inclusion.

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 Post subject: Re: Goblin Roster DZ2
 Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 2:22 pm 
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The Ooligan is a really nice and fine piece of player.

Really want to see the Swoop rules


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 Post subject: Re: Goblin Roster DZ2
 Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 5:02 pm 
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Milo wrote:
You don't care for the 'Ooligan, fair enough. Yet I think some coaches would enjoy having a Pass Blocking Disturbing Presence with Dodge and Stunty, now only 6 SPPs away. Maybe you'll add one just because you love the model, or maybe another coach will, even if it doesn't substantially improve his team. Not everyone plays BB for the same reasons. Yeesh.

Sadly as a Double Skill Pass Block is very unlikely to be seen on a Ooligan. He is a fun addition to the team but probably not compeative. The occasional +3 FAME will be nice and at least making it so both sides have +1 will help the team out. As for other people's suggestions of Dirty Player that is really not the skill you want on your Fan Fave player as you need him to stay on the pitch!

Without Dodge Swoop is costing the Doom Diver 40k in value. While we do not yet have the text I expect this will be another fun, but not competative, player. I am glad that neither player got "Secret Weapon" as the team already struggles enough with keeping players on the pitch.


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 Post subject: Re: Goblin Roster DZ2
 Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 6:22 pm 
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garion wrote:
spubbbba wrote:
I don't think we know what we want. GW come up with overpowered rules for a limited edition pair of models and people are outraged and site this as evidence they have no clue and don't care about the game.

They give one of the weakest teams goblins a couple of extra weapons (one of which is a bit rubbish and the other unknown right now) that are entirely optional and don't change anything else and people moan that this isn't enough.


I don't think that's what people are complaining about really. People just want usable players and rules. The Grak and Cumbleberry stuff was poor because the price was wrong and the skill card was missing loner. It was just sloppy from top to bottom. It was also stated that this is an optional rule only not a core one. So the really is not a biggie. Its just poor design and sloppy.

This time we get Goblins with hooligan who no one in their right mind will take if they want build a competitive goblin team, a team with a chance of winning. So why even bother adding him to the roster? 30k is very big bloat on a team that thrives by keeping its TV down. It does show a real lack of understanding of how people play with this team really. 50k remove disturbing presence and you have a player worth taking, albeit a dull one. I'm still not totally happy with the hooligan being on a sports team either if I'm totally honest. But I could over look that if he had solid rules.



You have to remember that the competitive section of Blood Bowl is actually a pretty small if vocal part of the market. GW have always sold their games as being “beer and pretzel”, something you play with some mates and have fun. The “rule of cool” is an important factor as well, so stupid but fun wins over balanced yet boring.

I can see them taking on feedback that people were unhappy about balance issues with Grak or adding unnecessary skills with gutter and weeping daggers. It looks to me that they have deliberately avoided changing goblins too much, just added a bit more flavour. The ooligan has a couple of underused skills where they could have just invented new ones instead. We’ll find out soon enough what swoop does but I doubt it will be game breaking either.

Neither of them having secret weapon is a good thing as a huge issue with goblins is being forced to put weapons on the pitch late 1st half only for them to be sent off.

I suspect that the percentage of people who will buy GW’s new goblins to play them competitively is pretty small. It is probably more about adding some fun new models to the goblin range. Both these would be easy enough to convert or you could use the 2nd edition ooligans and WHFB doom diver.

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