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 Post subject: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread
 Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 3:05 pm 
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Everything is spread all over the place on this forum, would be good if all DZ stuff was on the one thread really -

First of all general feedback - The quality of the book is good. The art work is very nice. The miniatures on the inside covers look great.

Barik Far Blast
Skills and stat line remained the same so no issue there. There are two errors on this page though. Its got him listed as being in The Grudge Bearers but he played for The Dwarf Warhammerers. The 2nd error is it states a dwarf made the first chainsaw used on the pitch however this was Billak (spelling?) from Dekka's Decomposing Decimators. Shame this error was made as that was a big moment in BB and White dwarf history.

Glart
love all of this, I cannot wait to see a model of this guy, I think he could be amazing if done well.

Kreek 'The Verminator' Rustgouger
Cool player, PT and St7 Ball and Chain is great. Ma 5 is huge though. This makes his pitch coverage amazing. I think this guy could be possibly too good for his cost. Him teamed up with Fezglitch or Glart and a Rogre could more than make up for being a TV underdog. Is play testing being done?

Horkon
Great job. I love that we have finally found out his history. Made me actually want to play with him :)

Swifts
really like their rules. love that you closely followed existing material for these two as well.

Bo Gallant
Really good addition to the game. Has useful skills, and affordable. A good addition to high elves who had no one worth taking in that price range in CRP

Willow
Background etc.. is fine, art work good. Glad you clarified that she is female, I always thought this was the case, but often saw people referring to her as a him. Shame her stats and skills didnt change a bit though as she is still pretty much pointless

Karla
Like Bo a useful addition to the game, usable skills affordable. very much - Zara light. I cant imagine I will ever bother taking Zara again though, as this player is 50k cheaper. 50k is a babe.....

Helmut
Great art work, love it!!!. Like the background etc.. too. Although saying he started playing for Bruendar Grimjacks is a bit off. Pretty sure they are a Necromantic team, so seems like a possible error here. edit: i was wrong here. Grimjacks were a chaos humans teams in 2nd ed.

Ripper
Looks great, liked the background. Again its nice finding out a bit about him, as to my knowledge we only had the 3rd ed star player card on him and thats all the info we had. So its cool to find out about his history.

Scrappa
fine, though why doesn't he have a pogo stick in the art work.... seems a shame.

Madcap Miggz
Great!!! so happy to have a squig in the game officially. One of the best things in the rulebook, even though he is still a bit rubbish.

Optional Rules
They are optional. So no impact on me really. But they are fine. All look like fun. I like that not only are there silly things here, but also options to give greater depth if that's what you are after. Big Thumbs up for the optional rules.

Page 33
Why is the Orcs arm not coloured in. This is really sloppy. Someone forgot to 'tick a layer on' in photoshop.....

NEW RULES
Why aren't these optional rules? They certainly read like non core rules....

Infamous Coaches
Horatio (a.k.a. the crap wizard) -
This ain't a good change. It is probably the only one of these coaches people will bother with. Why do we get this before we get proper wizards, and when we do get proper wizards this means teams will potentially get 3 fireballs a game... was this considered? Would have been better added to a 100k deck of cards. 2 fireballs for 80k is too good for agile teams. d3 is barely inaccurate.

Kari -
Its fine as rules go. She will probably get taken by rookie Norse teams etc.. as she is 50k and you will be down players at points in the game. However this feels like an 'optional rule', having this in with the other more streamlined inducements it feels very out of place and clunky. would have been better added to a 50k deck of cards.

Finka -
This guy is pretty awesome. More reason why Goblins need to keep their TV down, more reason why Ooligan and Doom Diver wont get taken in Gobo teams. RR bribes, yes please. It does not state that this is a one time use. So it appears you get to RR each time a bribe is used. 3 bribes and this guy for gobos will be quite common now. Feels like an optional rule again. As it is rather clunky making race specific inducements. Although the guys effect is good.

Papa Skullbones -
80k for random mutations with 1 in 8 chance of failure. Nope.... not going to bother with this one. Again feels like an optional rule, rather than core. I really cant see if being taken, other than extremely rare circumstances. Its just not worth its cost, and 50% of the rolls are a bit crap.

Galandril -
I dunno, again reads like a special play card, and optional rule rather than a core rule. It is in theory bowl quite a good thing, however babes and wizard (when a wizard returns) will always take precedent. Like Papa I doubt we will see much use out of this.

Krot -
80k only 50% chance of success, and only 1 in 6 chance of actually being useful. I doubt anyone will ever use it.

NEW TEAMS
Goblins
Loner remaining on a Trolls. This is really sad. 7 years of play testing and they are still stuck with Loner..... This was a really big chance to fix something.
Ooligan - Over priced. I can't see anyone bothering. He will only get taken by people that want really "fluffy" teams, or people that don't know any better. Especially when you consider you can now induce Finka a long with your bribes to ensure they work. Sadly another pointless addition.
Doom Diver - Definitely adds some fun unlike the Ooligan, so he will get a run out. But in a competitive goblin team he will be left behind. Similar story to the bomber really.

Overall gobos - Feels like a big missed opportunity to make a meaningful improvement to the game/roster.

Chaos Renegades
Its fine over all.
Addition of an Orc lineman is just going to see him used as LoS fodder and never skilled up.
Shame the linemen still have P access. I would much rather they had actually passers. 6338, pass 60k GPM. Rather than the nonsensical linemen that are all skilled enough for P access. But this is a minor gripe.

Underworld
Fine, I like that we have a few famous underworld teams mentioned now.

SKILLS
Glad this was done. nice to have it all corrected and in one place. Monstrous Mouth official addition is cool.

Hall of Fame
Love these pages.

Conclusion
Overall good job. Disappointed to see a few errors as listed above. The optional stuff is great. Not feeling the new inducements really, they would have been better placed on cards, or listed as optional IMO as they are clunky compared with the pretty streamlined set of inducements we currently have. The inaccurate fireball is fine on its own, but when combines with another wizard when they come has balance implications. I have concerns Karla will mean Zara is never bothered with ever again. I also have concerns that the Verminator could have potential balance implications, skaven are already in the elite list of teams. Loner on trolls still sucks, big missed chance here. New players are largely pointless though at least Doom Diver adds some fun.


Last edited by garion on Tue May 23, 2017 4:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread
 Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 3:43 pm 
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garion wrote:
Helmut
Great art work, love it!!!. Like the background etc.. too. Although saying he started playing for Bruendar Grimjacks is a bit off. Pretty sure they are a Necromantic team, so seems like a possible error here.


On the back cover of the 2nd ed Blood Bowl companion, it has the Helmut model listed as Bruendar Grimjacks.
2nd ed didn't have undead,necro etc as we know them know and the Grimjacks were a chaos aligned human team back then.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread
 Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 3:48 pm 
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Should also add, Frank N. Stein is also one of the Grimjacks, and he is originally listed as being human back in 2nd ed Star Players

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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread
 Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 3:58 pm 
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Thanks for the summary. I was about to reread the book and make a list of everything new.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread
 Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 4:15 pm 
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AllyRdr wrote:
Should also add, Frank N. Stein is also one of the Grimjacks, and he is originally listed as being human back in 2nd ed Star Players


Cool thanks for clarifying that for me. All my stuff is in storage at the moment so cant check :( Moving house sucks so bad....

That does make sense mind that they were another chaos Pact team of sorts, as they also had an Orc too I believe?


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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread
 Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 6:41 pm 
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garion wrote:
Swifts
really like their rules. love that you closely followed existing material for these two as well.



I'm not a huge fan of the artwork for them, hope the models will be a bit flashier when they come out. Ideally at least one of them will have the classic facemasks.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread
 Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 7:16 pm 
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garion wrote:
Papa Skullbones -
80k for random mutations with 1 in 8 chance of failure. Nope.... not going to bother with this one. Again feels like an optional rule, rather than core. I really cant see if being taken, other than extremely rare circumstances. Its just not worth its cost, and 50% of the rolls are a bit crap.


I just spotted an error for this guy. His rules say to roll a D6, but there are 8 options and I don't see any mention of modifiers.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread
 Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 8:12 pm 
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garion wrote:
Madcap Miggz
Great!!! so happy to have a squig in the game officially. One of the best things in the rulebook, even though he is still a bit rubbish.


Really Awesome. 30,9% chance of a cage break on a non-dodge ball carrier. Much needed for the goblins and nice for underworld.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread
 Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 8:37 pm 
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spubbbba wrote:
garion wrote:
Papa Skullbones -
80k for random mutations with 1 in 8 chance of failure. Nope.... not going to bother with this one. Again feels like an optional rule, rather than core. I really cant see if being taken, other than extremely rare circumstances. Its just not worth its cost, and 50% of the rolls are a bit crap.


I just spotted an error for this guy. His rules say to roll a D6, but there are 8 options and I don't see any mention of modifiers.


Yeah, we know about that one. It's supposed to be "roll a die" and consult the table -- you're supposed to use a D8.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread
 Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 9:20 pm 
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garion wrote:
Swifts
really like their rules. love that you closely followed existing material for these two as well.

Only just got my book today, but a quick flick through to the Swifts section basically takes the fluff about them after the NAF collapse and throws it to one side making a new one up.. Grrr....

Also the hell happened to Zy-Nox for the Chaos All-Stars?

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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread
 Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 10:13 pm 
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Ithilkir wrote:
garion wrote:
Swifts
really like their rules. love that you closely followed existing material for these two as well.

Only just got my book today, but a quick flick through to the Swifts section basically takes the fluff about them after the NAF collapse and throws it to one side making a new one up.. Grrr....

Also the hell happened to Zy-Nox for the Chaos All-Stars?


I suspect Zy-Nox was missing as they needed the TV to be 2,000,000, just a guess.

Good shout about the elves actually. I forgot all about that. Was that in the Fanatic magazine when it went online?

I really hope they use the full backstory for Jordell ‘the Cyclone’ Freshbreeze and Hubris 'Pain-Giver' Rakarth when the time comes, I'd hate to see that torn up.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread
 Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 10:47 pm 
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It was LRB 5 that they changed to be the ones that longed for the old days away from these new pompous High Elf teams and back to PROfessional Elven teams. They even setup their own team the Kallahir Swifts (full fluff and background in LRB5 and 6)

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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread
 Post Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 8:01 pm 
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Soooo..
I was waiting till someone else noticed this potentially game breaking new core rule.

80k wizard for 2 fireballs... sure they scatter d3 but thats doesnt really matter much.

Any chance this gonna be retconned/made an optional rule instead of a core rule? It seems really odd that great restraint has been shown in most aspects of the rule changes and then we get this game breaker?

Also it should be noted that this cheap wizard is even more annoying as TV leaders can easily afford him every other game thanks to the way the inducement phase and cash has been changed in this edition.

:pissed: :pissed: :pissed: :pissed: :pissed: :pissed: :pissed: :pissed: :pissed: :pissed: :pissed: :pissed: :pissed: :pissed:


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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread
 Post Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 9:32 pm 
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Play it, then let us know how it works in the wild. It wasn't a problem in testing. Actual experiences are more useful as feedback.

As with all Inducements, I'd point at pg28 of DZ1, you can, as so many people always have with Wizards, Cards, even Stars in some leagues and tournaments, exclude any Inducements you wish. These new ones are no different.

But yeah, please do play it and then feedback. It's genuinely always more useful.

Cheers.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread
 Post Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 9:51 pm 
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JT-Y,

How is it meant to play with the standard Wizard? Was that tested at all? We're about to move to a new season and, before I propose adding these inducements, I'm trying to figure out how it would work if someone took the 150k Wizard and the 80k Wizard. Can both be activated before/after a turn? First glance is that 80k may be a little cheap (but, as you've said, we haven't actually played with it yet), but my main concern is if someone has 230k in inducement money.

Was that scenario tested or, since the 150k Wizard isn't official yet, was that left out?

Thanks.


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