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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:09 pm 
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and competitive leagues even more so.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:01 pm 
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MacHurto wrote:
Ok, thought it was redrafting as we were discussing FF and redrafting (or so I thought) and not retiring a team mid season.
We were/are; I also thought garion was talking about reseting his team at the end of a season. Since it seems he just sacked all his players when he had a million gold in the bank then it is not really relavant to the discussion.


garion wrote:
The overall point here is that FF serves no purpose, and not only that - on occasion actually has a negative impact on the game. As I have said before, any rule that promotes team retirement for no reason is a bad mechanic, it really is THAT simple.
That is not actually true it has a prupose however just like Coaches/Cheerleaders Fan Factor has very little impact on the game; on average 1/3 kickoffs which is about once a game. It is just like Sneaky Git and Block skill they both add to TV but one clearly has more actual value than the other.

Personally I do not think the problem is that FF adds to TV the problem is the range of FF being 0-18 rather than something like 0-12. However I do not think this is something that is likely to get addressed as it such a minor part of the game.

The one negative of Fan Factor is that unlike all other parts of team management there is no way to get rid of it other than not winning games; well you can possibly lose d3 during redraft but that is still not controlable.

Milo wrote:
Lyracian is quoting, albeit slightly incorrectly, the benefits of having a high FF when you try to become resident in a stadium.

My mistake I have not quite learnt the new rules off by heart yet! D16+Fan Factor +Mods does make it much easier to get sponsorship and I can see one-off sponsors for the cash boost being a lot more common once teams have a couple of ongoing sponsorship contracts.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:55 am 
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Deary me.....

Lyracian wrote:
MacHurto wrote:
Ok, thought it was redrafting as we were discussing FF and redrafting (or so I thought) and not retiring a team mid season.


We were/are; I also thought garion was talking about reseting his team at the end of a season. Since it seems he just sacked all his players when he had a million gold in the bank then it is not really relevant to the discussion


The point is as I have explained many times now, in CRP I have had to retire a couple of teams because of FF bloat, it should have been made free then. Now things are only going to be made worse because of the post season phase, especially for the weaker teams with expensive players. I know this isn't a huge deal its the minutiae, but it does happen. FF bloat should NEVER EVER be reason to retire a team, its nonsense. I genuinely do not understand how this is open for debate, you keep arguing but why?? I am yet to see a single good reason for its inclusion in team cost that is meant to accurately represent a teams strength. The winning team tax is the closest I've seen but does that outweigh the problems it causes? No. And should a good team tax be in the core rules? That is debatable but it certainly shouldn't happen this way, it was handled better in lrb4.

Also - there are no results on the kick off table that DIRECTLY use FF for the result, there hasn't bee since LRB4 (when FF actually served a genuine purpose). Now it has a chance of adding +1 Fame, or +2 in exceptional circumstances. You can still win or tie a roll when the opponent has fame +1. You can still roll better on the 2d6 to see who gets fame as the FF underdog. The FF actual effect in game is sooooooooooooooo small it is almost completely worthless in value. Its absolutely not worth 10k, maybe 1k if we were to put a relative value on it and you really really wanted it to add to TV for some reason.

You mention Coaches and Cheerleaders, although still not worth their cost at all, they more directly impact the kick off table and you have a choice whether you have them or not. So (outside of resurrection fixed TV tournaments) if you are stupid you can waste 10Tv+ on them if you really want then more fool you, but you have a choice here.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:29 am 
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garion wrote:
The point is as I have explained many times now, in CRP I have had to retire a couple of teams because of FF bloat, it should have been made free then.

Personal anecdotes do not make a good basis for wholesale rules changes. Is there any evidence that this is a recurring problem across multiple coaches, races, leagues and playstyles?
I'd be interested to hear a bit more background on how this happened to you, although possibly in a new thread to avoid hijacking this one. Best I can guess is that you won nearly 40 matches before having a couple of heavy casualty matches that wiped out your entire team, yet somehow had the cash on hand to replace all your players?
Yes, you're carrying a bit of bloat with the FF but that's been built up with an 81% win ratio, so hardly seems punitive.
What kind of league was this team in?


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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:51 am 
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Yesof teams because of FF bloat, it should have been made free then.[/quote]
Personal anecdotes do not make a good basis for wholesale rules changes. Is there any evidence that this is a recurring problem across multiple coaches, races, leagues and playstyles?
I'd be interested to hear a bit more background on how this happened to you, although possibly in a new thread to avoid hijacking this one. Best I can guess is that you won nearly 40 matches before having a couple of heavy casualty matches that wiped out your entire team, yet somehow had the cash on hand to replace all your players?
Yes, you're carrying a bit of bloat with the FF but that's been built up with an 81% win ratio, so hardly seems punitive.
What kind of league was this team in?[/quote]

yes that's essentially what happened.

Agree. Anecdotal evidence isn't enough for wholesale changes. however this is something very small, not what I would call wholesale changes and anecdotal evidence is all there will ever be for this type of thing, most leagues probably retire after one season and start again anyway I'd imagine.


As I said before in a post LRB4 world the question should be why should 1FF add 10k to your TV? It a small tweak to a rule that can on rare occasions can have a negative impact on the game, so why have it as a rule at all?

Tv is meant to accurately represent a teams strength with the current inducement system working as an equaliser. FF=10k is not accurate.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:11 am 
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Funny thing about optional rules. MVP allocated randomly for 3 selected players on team was optional in previous edition LRB6.

But everyone was really happy about that rule presented in GW2016 edition, no longer optional.

I know I skipped the entire optinal rule page completely back then.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:29 pm 
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Lyracian wrote:
That is not actually true it has a prupose however just like Coaches/Cheerleaders Fan Factor has very little impact on the game; on average 1/3 kickoffs which is about once a game.



how is 1/3 of kickoffs about once a game? That is a 1-0 game, which can not be a representation of the average


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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:34 pm 
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iamcrazyjoe wrote:
how is 1/3 of kickoffs about once a game? That is a 1-0 game, which can not be a representation of the average
There are two halfs which means the minimum number of kickoffs is 2. If the offence scores on there own drive the other team gets a drive which is a third kick off or fourth if both teams score. Most games I play have 3 or four kick offs with a few having 2. There are are always a few games with more but I do not think that is enough to push the average up to 4 kickoffs per game.

garion wrote:
Tv is meant to accurately represent a teams strength with the current inducement system working as an equaliser. FF=10k is not accurate.

I agree with you it is overcosted for what you get. However paying 20k for skills like Sneaky Git is also overcosted. I disagree with you that the default state of the game should be Free Fan Factor.

garion wrote:
Also - there are no results on the kick off table that DIRECTLY use FF for the result
The FF actual effect in game is sooooooooooooooo small it is almost completely worthless in value.

I really did not think I needed to reiterate how Fan Factor, FAME and the Kick-off table interact in every post? I was under the assumption we all knew high FF does not guarantee FAME and thus getting the bonus on those 1/3 of kick off events where FAME is used?

garion wrote:
The point is as I have explained many times now, in CRP I have had to retire a couple of teams because of FF bloat, it should have been made free then. Now things are only going to be made worse because of the post season phase, especially for the weaker teams with expensive players. I know this isn't a huge deal its the minutiae, but it does happen. FF bloat should NEVER EVER be reason to retire a team, its nonsense.

It was your choice to retire the team though. If it really was so beaten up that you had to sack all the players then why continue with it anyway? You talked about team History we had a Human team get two Blitzers killed and they wrote some fluff that the King had the team executed for losing and then the B-squad played the next game. Rules wise this was just a new 1 million team. We had an Ogre team get two Ogres killed and do the same. Both teams still had the same name and history. I have started teams again in new Leagues they still have the same history and player names.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:00 pm 
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Lyracian wrote:

garion wrote:
Tv is meant to accurately represent a teams strength with the current inducement system working as an equaliser. FF=10k is not accurate.

I agree with you it is overcosted for what you get. However paying 20k for skills like Sneaky Git is also overcosted. I disagree with you that the default state of the game should be Free Fan Factor.

Why? You are yet to give a single good reason why it should add to TV.

Sighting Sneaky Git being over costed as an argument is silly, and it is just highlighting something that everyone that played CRP knows should have been buffed for this edition, yet the people that are designing this edition failed to do anything about. There are other skills that are terrible as well and never get taken. But again you have a choice here, if you are stupid you can give 10 players kick of return, but that's the coaches choice. With FF you do not, you are forced to add TV to your team.

Lyracian wrote:
garion wrote:
Also - there are no results on the kick off table that DIRECTLY use FF for the result
The FF actual effect in game is sooooooooooooooo small it is almost completely worthless in value.

I really did not think I needed to reiterate how Fan Factor, FAME and the Kick-off table interact in every post? I was under the assumption we all knew high FF does not guarantee FAME and thus getting the bonus on those 1/3 of kick off events where FAME is used?


No one is asking you to explain it. I am pointing out that is is almost entirely worthless. You seemed to be claiming otherwise. But you now said yourself it is not worth the value it is given. So essentially you are promoting a rule that adds imbalance to the game. Again why? At this point I am not sure whether you are just trolling/arguing for the sake of arguing or genuinely have not thought about this and/or don't like change. There is literally no reason it should add to TV, I cannot comprehend how this is even in question tbh.



On another topic, someone reminded me of another issue I have with this edition-

Argue the call - if successful you should stay on the pitch. I think I mentioned this earlier, but this really should be fixed. It is nonsensical successfully arguing then being sent off anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:47 pm 
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garion wrote:
Why? You are yet to give a single good reason why it should add to TV.
Equally you have not given a *good* reason why it should not? Everying on a team adds to TV why should FF be any different?

garion wrote:
There are other skills that are terrible as well and never get taken. But again you have a choice here, if you are stupid you can give 10 players kick of return, but that's the coaches choice. With FF you do not, you are forced to add TV to your team.

The fact there is no way to get rid of FF is why it is a tax on good coaches everything else can be hired or fired.

garion wrote:
No one is asking you to explain it. I am pointing out that is is almost entirely worthless. You seemed to be claiming otherwise. But you now said yourself it is not worth the value it is given. So essentially you are promoting a rule that adds imbalance to the game. Again why? At this point I am not sure whether you are just trolling/arguing for the sake of arguing or genuinely have not thought about this and/or don't like change. There is literally no reason it should add to TV, I cannot comprehend how this is even in question tbh.
I am not trolling I just disagree with you. We both agree, and I said it before, FF is not worth the cost you pay for it; what we disagree on is if it should have a cost at all. Why should something that effects the team be free when nothing else is? My point about Sneaky Git is that Fan Factor is not the only thing in the game that could do with improvement. LRB6 we got Horns not having to move first and Diving Catch getting +1 for an acurate. All these are minor but there is still a few things in the game that can be improved. While Sponsorship is optional I think adding stuff like that to make FF worth its value is better than trying to remove the cost from it.



garion wrote:
Argue the call - if successful you should stay on the pitch. I think I mentioned this earlier, but this really should be fixed. It is nonsensical successfully arguing then being sent off anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 6:13 pm 
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I have given multiple good reasons. The most important of which is it encourages team retirement, yes this is very rare, but when you find your self with a near rookie roster with an overhead of FF 130k then there is a problem. I guarantee if you find your self in this situation then you will change your tune. Either that or you will house rule your FF away. You shouldn't have to resort to this.

The 2nd reason I gave which you agree with is - it is nowhere close to being worth 10k, I think even 1k would be pushing it. Though if they made this possible then fine, 1k I could be on board with. But really why bother??? Just make it free and everyone would wonder why it was ever any other way.

You think there should be a winners tax, that's the only reason you give which I agree is open to debate and I can understand that to a certain extent, though it doesn't come close to standing up to the aforementioned negatives. For me winners tax should be the "optional rule" they should be switched around. I doubt anyone would ever use that option though, which in its self is pretty telling where as there have been numerous people in this thread alone that agree it should be free and I know of many others that also think it should be free.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:48 pm 
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Why fix FF and instead look at a different angle: Remove inducements altogether.

Just a thought... :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:07 pm 
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100% Agree that FF should be 'defaulted' to no impact on TV under the core rules, given it's value (or lack there-of). I would also suggest that it be 'turned-on' (TV-Wise) when/if a league introduces optional rules where it has more (any) of an impact.

Using the core rules, FF just doesn't have an impact on the game to warrant the TV cost. And yes, plenty of items (skills/players/staff/inducements) also arnt worth their weight in terms of TV but like it was pointed out, you have a choice on everything else, so it makes sence (to me at least) that the item you have real control over (besides winning/loosing) is just simply apart of your team. Heck, it may sound like blasphemy, but perhaps the whole concept of FF should be apart of Optional Rules with the other fluffy items in team management (stadiums, sponsors etc) where it has a 'real' use.

@Garion: I know you were saying 1k TV weight for FF for arguements sake but it begs the question (for a different thread for elaboration), do you think it would be good for the game to venture outside of the 10k increments? I know I personally like the streamlined approach of it and I feel like it would be a slipperly slope venturing away from it.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:26 am 
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How about, when you start a new season, you can drop any amount of previous FF?


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 Post subject: Re: Death Zone 2 Feedback thread
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:54 am 
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@garion: You've made some good points. I understand your point of view, and agree with the basic point that a rule that makes it more likely a coach will abandon a team should be reconsidered. I don't consider it as serious an issue as you do, but I do see your side of the argument.

The problem is that the rulebook has already been printed, and so -- for most players -- those rules are already in place. GW could print an errata, but that errata will only be seen by people who go looking for it, and errata are by their very nature admission of a mistake, which companies do not generally like to do without a compelling argument. Most coaches will probably never encounter a situation like yours when it was competitively better to abandon a team and start over; even those that do, many of them would prefer to keep the team and history and deal with the slight competitive disadvantage.

Given that the rules already clearly state the two options, and leave the choice of those options to the LC, I think it is unlikely that GW would post an errata just for this issue. If and/or when there is a new core rulebook printed, that would be, I think, the appropriate time to discuss whether the rulebook should be amended to show "no-TV-impact-for-FF" as the default option, and "FF-adds-to-TV" as the other option. I just don't think it's going to happen before that point, nor do I think it is severe enough (in impact or frequency) to warrant any errata.

What I do think would be great is an article in WD (or posted on bloodbowl.com) discussing options available to LCs, and making some suggestions about ways to tweak the rules to implement a more competitive or more fun league environment. Discussion of the pros and cons of this rule would go great in there, giving new LCs some background on why they should select one option or the other.

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