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 Post subject: Re: BB2016 to CRP Special Play Cards Comparison
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:50 pm 
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Very much in agreement with EastCoast. Have always found the CRP inducement method to be entirely too restrictive, particularly for the underdog, due to their inability to "top up" their inducement gold from their treasury. Inducements tend to be over-priced compared to their actual value, by design, so restricting the underdog's inducement spend to the TV-difference value (and not a penny more) means it's rare that they're ever going to actually be able to even their odds with the inducements they can buy. It's also extremely disheartening (not to mention counterintuitive) when you're getting inducement cash just short of the inducement you'd like to buy, have plenty of gold in the treasury, but aren't able to chip in that 10k or 20k to get you there.

Ultimately it may just be a case of "what you're used to" is always going to seem right. Plenty of old-time CRP players scoff at the idea of TV being unaffected by treasury-spend as exploitable; but as someone who discovered the game via BB2, I'm just as baffled by the fact that 40k of inducement cash is totally useless as I can't just add my own 10k to hire a bloodweiser babe/keg. Of course, BB2 prevents inducement exploitation with a bank rule that probably wouldn't be compatible with BB2016's redrafting rules; but between redrafting considerations and Expensive Mistakes, over-the-top inducement spending seems to be kept pretty well in check with the way we've all been interpreting the BB2016 inducement rules for the past year. Locally we've run two seasons under that interpretation, and haven't heard much in the way of complaints about it.

While I do see some minor potential for abuse, I much prefer the "misinterpreted" rule to the CRP system. Inducements make the game much more interesting, IMO, and CRP restricts their use far too heavily.

Would also say that if there's an official update on this, it honestly should be an errata and not an FAQ. With respect, other than "it's how it worked in the previous edition," there's absolutely nothing printed anywhere in the BB2016 rules suggesting that Team Value is based on anything but your team's roster, and certainly nothing to suggest an extra step during inducements where treasury spend is declared prior to TV being re-calculated. Reverting back to the CRP system isn't merely a clarification of the rules as written (i.e. something appropriate for an FAQ), it's significantly different from those rules. (Even if that was not the intent.)


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 Post subject: Re: BB2016 to CRP Special Play Cards Comparison
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:44 pm 
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I can echo Isenmike and EastCoast, the league I run has 20 players and we notched up 145 matches last season, 120 the season before, and have run this rule no problems across both.

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 Post subject: Re: BB2016 to CRP Special Play Cards Comparison
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:53 pm 
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If I was to run a league now (unfortunately not, as BB has died here) I wouldn't use the BB2016 rules, as I don't like the redrafting rules (I've disliked all off-field attrition mechanics) and being able to 'top up' inducements is wrong - a underdog should not be able to become an oversight in any form.

Isenmike, inducements aren't meant to "even the odds", so if they are then the systems not working.

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 Post subject: Re: BB2016 to CRP Special Play Cards Comparison
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:17 pm 
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Well Darkson, although that may have been the design initially it wasn't a great decision and there's no indication that the current powers that be intend for the the handicap system to be as punishing. Even being able to add cash doesn't really make them even, it just lessens the sting a bit more.

If I were in the business of producing and selling miniatures, I wouldn't want to penalize my customers should they want to join a league or purchase a new race and "start over" in their league. The underdog penalty was always short sighted, and "because that's always the way it was" is never a good reason for... well... anything.

I mean if specialist games is all about veteran coaches and teams steamrolling new players and chasing them off, then yes using CRP inducement rules is a dynamite idea.


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 Post subject: Re: BB2016 to CRP Special Play Cards Comparison
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:31 pm 
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It was the players that wanted inducements to not even the odds. Originally JJ had them at 50/50 and the players argued him down, as if inducements equal the TV difference you might as well not bother with team progression and just pick a TV to play at.

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Khorne and Bretonnian? Sorry, those don't exist - bring a real roster.


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 Post subject: Re: BB2016 to CRP Special Play Cards Comparison
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:53 pm 
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All good food for thought, and civil which is the thing I always appreciate the most.
Thanks gents.

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 Post subject: Re: BB2016 to CRP Special Play Cards Comparison
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:54 pm 
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Darkson wrote:
It was the players that wanted inducements to not even the odds. Originally JJ had them at 50/50 and the players argued him down, as if inducements equal the TV difference you might as well not bother with team progression and just pick a TV to play at.


I absolutely believe you. Veteran players with veteran teams wanted their progression with those teams be meaningful. It makes sense. But it's a short sighted decision as continuing leagues rely on an influx of new coaches. It's kind of hard to poll someone who isn't playing yet. Jervis should have overridden the coaches for their own good.

And it's not like progression is gone, but you do have to manage your treasury and your players more. Personally I enjoy the more intensive roster management, but I can see how it's not everybody's cup of tea.


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 Post subject: Re: BB2016 to CRP Special Play Cards Comparison
 Post Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:04 pm 
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JT-Y wrote:
All good food for thought, and civil which is the thing I always appreciate the most.
Thanks gents.


Thanks for listening and engaging.


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 Post subject: Re: BB2016 to CRP Special Play Cards Comparison
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:41 am 
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Darkson wrote:
It was the players that wanted inducements to not even the odds. Originally JJ had them at 50/50 and the players argued him down, as if inducements equal the TV difference you might as well not bother with team progression and just pick a TV to play at.


That makes sense to me as a reason why inducements should be over-priced relative to their value. The issue in question, though, is purchasing (or supplementing the purchase of) inducements using treasury. And managing your team's treasury is also part of the team's progression. Choosing whether to chip in that extra cash for inducements prior to a tough match, at the risk of not having enough treasury to replace any positionals you might lose during the match, is an interesting strategic decision that's entirely missing from CRP.


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 Post subject: Re: BB2016 to CRP Special Play Cards Comparison
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:49 am 
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Agree with all three posters on the 'it works with the inducements rule'

We are closing in on season 2 (137 games, season 1 hade 126) and a club of around 15-20 players.

For us the thing that an underdog can add cash to bring up the petty cash is for us a great thing - makes most coaches keeping a normal TV on the team.

And overdogs dont have enough money to become overpowered wih inducements and if the overdog buys Horatio - the underdog does the same and Horatio is out of the game.

In our club we all was happy for the 'new Inducements rule' - easy to understand and with expensive mistakes coaches dont dare to save up humongous sums.

Hope GW listen to the part that like it to be as we have played it BB2016 - so we can buy Special Play Cards, star players and infamous coaching staff and GW can produce more stuff. With the old CRP inducements rule - all that new stuff will be wasted because players will try and play it like its a chess game! Blood Bowl is crazy and not a hardcore game of even matches!

Redraft is the best thing since I started playing 2004 :-)


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 Post subject: Re: BB2016 to CRP Special Play Cards Comparison
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:53 am 
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Eeeeeh.. If opinions are being appreciated here that much, let me kick some dead horse nobody like to disturb that often, it seems. Stab skill, and its iconic bearer in BB - DE's Assassins - could perhaps see some love, at last?

Currently, Assassins:

1. Too slow for their Shadowing to be of any use - most of weak, low-AV "catcher-type" players who would seem like a good target to mark, stick to, and Stab them if they won't be able to dodge away, usually have enough MA to make your Shadowing a joke. Those with low MA tend to have higher AV and/or lower AG and/or enough offensive capability, so they won't even considering dodging away over smashing Assassin's face, what brings us to..
2. Assassins are fragile. With AV7 they are the number two target for your opponent (Witches are number one), and, ironically they are as well those guys who are most useful when are placed in contact with enemy player's (you can't use neither Stab, nor Shadowing effectively otherwise), so no that much sense into screening them away from danger. What brings us to...
3. They are a lot of bloat to TV, for their actual value. You've got yourself a player who is very situationally useful, mostly when you play some slow and/or low-AV race (like Norse or other Elves), or, even better, not too bashy and not too fast ones (Flings, Gobbos), but bloats your TV all the time, while being "that one guy that will be removed first or mb second, without much opportunity to contribute to the ongoing play" in the rest of your matches.

I understand it's not an easy task. DE are exceptionally good, and it's a challenge to make one of their players better, without OP the team too much. Really not sure what would be the best approach here. A couple of not that well thought out solutions:

1. (my old idea) To rise their overall usefulness, once per match, any of Assassins (but not each of them) would be allowed to equip Claw, coupled with a Secret Weapon skill at the same time. To sort out issue with dynamic change of TV it brings with it, some of his basic stats could be also affected, to reduce his value back to original numbers - like, his AV could drop to 6 and/or he could get Stunty skill/Niggling injury for the whole time he wears the Claw (the latter is just to make him more fragile to make up for sudden rise of his potential). Except for that, everything still works the same - if you don't have bribe, you lose your assassin at the end of the drive. If you have one and it works, you have an options to either unequip Claw and continue fielding your Assassin as before, or keep fielding him with Claw and as Secret weapon for one more drive. I personally like this whole idea because of a new element it brings to BB - it gives DE coach a sort of "just in time", "on demand" "hot-plugging" "modular design" [insert your own favorite buzzwords] approach to his team, gives him more flexibility. Perhaps even it could be made a trend and each team could be granted with one positional which is able to change its skillset/stats during the course of match to provide even more tactical options to coaches?

2. (somebody else's idea) Stab should provide you some kind of assist during fouls or blocks.
a) Could give you one additional foul action per turn (what is, imo, may be a bit OP already, though, at the other hand, it still bears the usual risk of ejection, and Assassins being quite expensive don't really endorse you to overuse this option, so, in the end, it may be fine, I guess)
b) Assassins start with Dirty Player and/or Sneaky Gits skills, without changing their price that much/at all (which is a very fluffy way to buff them)
c) During blocks with your assassins you would be allowed to re-roll armor or injury rolls, exactly like PO works now, with TRR spent. Optionally (if too OP), this reroll could be treated as a foul action instead (yet, it doesn't count as one, so you can foul this turn anyway; but you can use bribe to prevent ejection if caught regardless).
d) Blocking with assassins negates Block and/or Wrestle skills of defender (as assassin apparently use his dagger to cut defender's exposed body parts at the same time, breaking his concentration and will to fight) - again, at the cost that this specific (optional) action of negating it is considered as a foul and is treated the same way as in previous variant (though it makes them great "last resort" ball hawks and player removers which can do their job no matter what).
c) ...or some arbitrary combination of those. This additional rule pieces proposed here could be moved to a new Extraordinary skill designed exclusively for Assassins, to not re-define the Stab itself too much and not affect some other [Star] players which use it/may use it in the future.

3. Give them at least some price cut and/or bump their AV to 8, or increase their MA a bit, to make them at least as useful as lineman, or just a bit better, perhaps? They barely are worth what they cost now. I don't think anybody actually use them that often except for the sake of their fluffness.

4. Perhaps something could be done to allow Biltzing with intent to Stab to synergize with Multiple Block skill? That's the one really sound reason to even consider Assassins in your competitive roster atm, though very weak one, as it can only be used in a very rare situations where you managed to make your Assassin standing (or lying down with a Jump Up skill) and adjacent to 2 other players at the same time, at the start of his Stab action. AFAICR, currently due to some phrasing subtleties in rules those 2 skills cannot be combined during a Blitz. Something like adding "Unlike the regular Blitz, Blitz ending with Stab CAN be combined with Mutliple Block skill" to Stab's skill description - I know it's a dirty hack, but better than nothing.


Last edited by Mori-mori on Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:06 am, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: BB2016 to CRP Special Play Cards Comparison
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:10 am 
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And, granted such opportunity, if I may :)

Hail Marry Pass is largely underused skill, considered to be only situationally useful for anybody except Gobbos' bombers atm. Some slight buff wouldn't hurt it perhaps? How about making it work somewhat similar to how Kick skill does? Say, it could allow you to roll for scatters one more time, and then to select one of 2 possible landing squares. Or may be even those 2 skills could be combined into one meta-skill that can be used both during kick off and during the rest of the drive, just works differently for each of those cases?


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 Post subject: Re: BB2016 to CRP Special Play Cards Comparison
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:04 pm 
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I didn't read any of that Mori-mori, good though I'm sure it is.

I've had a really rough week which has been made worse by my being harassed in hospital. I'm home now and I'm off until new year. I'll continue to think about the subject in hand, but I'm not at present open to suggestions on how to make tier 1 teams better ;)
That's feedback you should send in via the community team. It does cross my desk and I do read it.

Cheers.

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 Post subject: Re: BB2016 to CRP Special Play Cards Comparison
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:22 pm 
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JT-Y wrote:
I'm home now and I'm off until new year.

Glad to here you are getting better JT-Y.

I doubt there is a perfect answer to Inducements but I do think having a method for the underdog to top up is important. That is what has been happing with how the new rules were written. For me this and Expensive Mistakes are the best change in the new rules.

With most leagues having team sheets available to view online it is quite easy for the over-dog to manipulate TV during post game to minimise any chance the underdog has of getting extras. For example this week in the LRB league I fired a Zombie and purchased a Cheerleader so my opponent only got 40k inducements which was worthless to him (the extra CL did win me a re-roll). Whereas last week in the BB2016 League I was getting 40k and was able to spend 10k from Treasury and buy a keg of beer. Now 40k is a very small amount but when you get to 90k or 140k this becomes much more of an important options.

Managing cash flow is part of the game however with LRB rules, unless you were very unlucky, you quickly reached a point where cash did not matter. Expensive Mistakes, or a Bank Rule, stops teams hoarding cash which makes it a very tactical decision whether to spend treasury gold on inducements or not. Topping up would not work with LRB Rules because there is no meaningful limits on cash it does however work with the BB2016 rules.


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 Post subject: Re: BB2016 to CRP Special Play Cards Comparison
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:00 pm 
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Lyracian wrote:
I doubt there is a perfect answer to Inducements but I do think having a method for the underdog to top up is important. That is what has been happing with how the new rules were written. For me this and Expensive Mistakes are the best change in the new rules.

We've been using Financial Fair Play and the Bank at 150 in Champion Cup. I think we may see it spread platform-wide, hopefully with an increase in the bank to 300k (similar to the Expensive Mistakes softcap).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0


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