So - about that human catcher

[JPB]

What do people think about removing Loner from the Ogre? Human is a team that can ride 4 team-re-rolls, and an Ogre without Loner would not only mean to reliably re-roll Bone-head but also the 2D blocks, which may make the Human Ogre the most reliable Big Guy in the game, and give the team a punching piece supported by 4 Blitzers.

I'm not 100% convinced by this idea, but couldn't that be a compromise, that helps coaches on all levels?
(i.e. a buff that is less specific and marginal (AV8/60k), but makes the team stronger without drastic changes (ST3/AG4)).

[plasmoid]

I think it would be a nice twist.
Make humans the most disciplined team. Lonerless big guy. And 40K rerolls?
Yes, I know dwarfs had them, and they were a problem. Because dwarfs are dwarfs. Humans aren't... you know.... dwarfs
Cheers
Martin

[JPB]

40k re-rolls or 50k re-rolls. I think it can work with both.
I'm also not sure how much of a problem 40k re-rolls really are. They may be too cheap (80k) during progressive leagues, but teams don't need that many re-rolls anyway. And some starting teams may balloon their re-roll numbers (I think dwarf did). But other than that?

Amazon had 40k re-rolls too, didn't they?

Regarding background it actually could be sold as a disciplined, well trained race (rigid training regimes). The other idea was an Ogre that grew up among humans, or some half-breed (there were always rumours that Zug was a half-orc). But I'm never particularly bothered by the need for explanations. The Human race is quite bad at understanding anything truly, but really excels at making stuff up. (So there is always an out, )
Although it has its limitations, i.e. imagination can't reach into the unknown, that's why aliens have always two legs, two arms, and an animal head. Perhaps not that creative after all, huh ).

Anyway,
I guess that somewhat sums it up. (Catcher, Strong Arm/Diving Catch, Ogre)

I don't see much more options, other than a rewrite, or options that would border onto a rewrite. And in that case I would just do the rewrite rather than trying to force the roster to become something it isn't. (And some of the smaller changes may even already be guilty of that).

However, as pointed out losing the Human roster is a bit of a shame.

Which is probably the main issue with the Human team. The roster is fine. The only perceived problem is that a Human roster should perform better (upper/middle tier, rather than middle/lower tier).
But once you remove that expectation the roster is actually fine.

Which is basically the main issue of BB. It's malfunctioning on so many levels, but working so well at its core, that it's really a pain to do anything with it.

[Skitters]

I'm assuming it has been suggested before but is there a reason the human team does not have a Halfling roster option in a similar way to Orcs with Goblins?

Is it to create more differentation between the human and orc rosters?

Gives both a TTM option but could could actually see the halflings being used as catchers more so than goblins on the orc team

....taking it a bit further perhaps also have an option for either a dwarf longbeard or elf lineman? (but not both)

[faust_33]

I'm assuming it has been suggested before but is there a reason the human team does not have a Halfling roster option in a similar way to Orcs with Goblins?

Is it to create more differentation between the human and orc rosters?

Gives both a TTM option but could could actually see the halflings being used as catchers more so than goblins on the orc team

....taking it a bit further perhaps also have an option for either a dwarf longbeard or elf lineman? (but not both)

Not really a "Human" team, but I've thought it would be cool to make a mixed team like the old ones. Essentially a 'Good' version of the Chaos Renegades, with Humans, Elves, Dwarves, and Halflings.

[longfang]

40k re-rolls? If any team doesn't need re-roll it's humans who start with sure hands, pass, blocks, catch, dodge.

[plasmoid]

Longfang said:

40k re-rolls? If any team doesn't need re-roll it's humans who start with sure hands, pass, blocks, catch, dodge.

What? I'd say that because Human team has weak positionals, they often field linemen, WHO have plenty of use for rerolls.
Also, because the team isn't a great team, they have plenty of need for GFIs, lineman Dodges and other "unprotected rolls". Even more so if Ogres could use the rerolls, as someone else suggested.

But even if it were true that they don't really need them, then the Price reduction would still mean that they could afford a better starting roster, and that their team value would be (slightly lower) - both of which is always useful.

@Skitters - Halflings don't add as much to Humans as gobbos do to orcs. IMO. Gobbos add AG-skills and mobility. The human team already has both, so it's just the TTM option.
Mind you, IMO, it would be cute. But it would move the team further towards an "imperial" theme (Halflings live in the Moot) which no doubt isn't to everyones liking.

Cheers
Martin

[harvestmouse]

Reroll price was to BB what Leadership stat was to Warhammer. It was related to team training and how well they worked together. Zons and Dorfs had 80k RRs, and this related to teamwork, training, intelligence and ability to stay cool under pressure. From LRB5 onward this factoring wasn't really counted.

[juck101]

Actually the blitzers are overcosted. Lets forgot the catchers and leave them av7 and move on.

[JPB]

I'm assuming it has been suggested before but is there a reason the human team does not have a Halfling roster option in a similar way to Orcs with Goblins?

I like that. But it goes slightly against the teams' theme (serious, hard working, successful, jack of all trades, role-players, focused but not dominating) and is a bit too old school (probably the reason why I like it , free-minded, flexible, parody, sport).
And a mixed team (throwback to the Heroes of Law the original counterpart to the Evil Gits) may be the better solution (as faust_33 said), but it's very unlikely too happen as it's too BB, and nowadays Warhammer themes are preferred (Khorne, Slaanesh, Gnoblars, whatever).

Who are Gnoblars anyway? I know most of the BB background and the historic relation between Ogres and Snotlings, and the significant role Snotlings play in the BB background. But I never heard of Gnoblars, until I saw them appear on the Ogre roster. It's so weird.
So if I now want to play a Snotling team (and what BB fan wouldn't at one point or another) I now have to pretend that Gnoblars are Snotlings. Who is supposed to be pleased by that?

Anyway, I once updated the Dungeonbowl teams, and I decided to design the Bright College (originally Human, Dwarf) as a Heroes of Law version (Human, Dwarf, Halfling, Elf)
And this is it:
Fluff: What can you say about success but to envy it. The bright sponsored Blood Axes are one of those legendary teams where you can say little but gasp in admiration. 4 (actually 3 after the 89 odd final, background error) Dungeonbowls in their MAD career is the top of the list (not after 89 any more, background error), and even though their first matches outside of a dungeon produced mixed results, there is a shimmer of hope in form of the Auld Worlde Warlords, a team of Blood Bowl veterans formed by Magnus the Piles in 2499. Their similar line-up and style of play, that dominated the open tournament scene for a while, has proven that the Bright system can be transitioned well into the open format, if given the time. Consequently, it seems as if the “Blood Axes' spell won't be broken any time soon” and “the teams' future continues to look Bright indeed”, as put so eloquently by a bright wizard spokesman when announcing the teams' renewed sponsorship. However, the long months of haggling, uncertainty and looming bankruptcy leading up to this point, have left a massive chip on the teams' shoulders and a shadow of doubt on everyone else. Famous Teams: Blood Axes (3 Dungeonbowls), Auld Worlde Warlords.
0-16 Human Lineman
0-2 Elf Thrower (the MA 6, AV 7 one)
0-4 Halfling
0-4 Dwarf Blocker/Longbeard (whatever you call them)
0-2 Human Blitzer (Has GAS/P access)
0-1 Treeman
Re-Roll 60.000

May be slightly OP, and my notes tell me to consider dropping the Treeman or the Human Blitzer, and, hey, I believe them, they are from my younger self, after all .
However, this team is similar to Orcs. Treeman/Troll, Blitzer/Blitzer, Longbeard/Blocker etc. So it may be fine as it is.

[kyrre]

Gnoblars are probably snotlings or runts by a different, trademarkable, name.

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Snotling

[Gaixo]

Gnoblars were added to the lore when ogres got their own army in Warhammer some 20 years ago. They're basically goblins with a different geographical spread and broader noses.

[Darkson]

Only(!) added 13 years ago.

[JPB]

Actually, I know what Gnoblars are . I read the original WD fluff by Kelly, back in the days, and it was hilarious.

I also think that Warhammer is a great background. In fact, it's one of the big five (Star Wars, Star Trek, Lord of the Rings and Warhammer (both versions)).

It just annoys me that BB is the red-headed stepchild.

I also just read a statement that “Slann can't be in BB, because it has been established in Warhammer, that that is not a thing, and so it can't be in BB. Who are we to rewrite the great Warhammer background? Etc.”
But they have no problem slapping around the BB background until it gets silly (...)

And all these “updates, adjustments and modernizations” are quite deceptive, too. Because in all those cases, BB is not once the intended end of the means and effort. It's always about Warhammer, and Warhammer only. And it does nothing for BB.

2nd edition was a perfectly sound background. The discovery, the spreading, the rules argument, the ratification. It all made sense. Translating that into Warhammer is awkward. Possible, but awkward. But they didn't even try, they just dropped it. The entire structure of the BB world. And nowadays every new coach can scratch his/er head why certain “famous teams” were oddly incapable of ever winning the Chaos Cup.

But anyway, .

[plasmoid]

A slightlu different take on why Humans aren't exactly a stellar team. (And yes, I acknowledge that not everyone agrees with me on this):
Could the plight of the humans be caused by the fact that more than half of their players are offense specialists, and not particularly useful on defense?
I mean, you don't really want to put a lot of catchers in on defense - because of their reduced stats.

Compare:
Orcs: 1 troll + 4 blitzers + 4 Black orcs + 1 lineorc?
Humans: 1 ogre + 4 blitzers + 1 thrower? + 1 catcher? + 4( to 6) linemen. That's pretty harsh for an AG3 team.

Cheers
Martin