EUROPEN : What appened in round 3 ?

[nightwing]

I'm talking about the "reroll incident"...

I don't think I'm out of line at all.
Amongst the possibilities, this one is possible.

Maybe it's not polite to suggest someone could be a cheater but hey, some people are.

The other incident is, in my opinion, a total lack of fair play.
Which is just nearly as bad.

As regards the game ending- the entire weekend, it was made very, very clear, every round, that when the clock ran out it was dice down, no extensions, whether the game had finished or not. As numerous posts have mentioned- chess clocks were available (and players could easily have timed games on their phones if required), and if either player had any fears they might not finish within the time they had 2 hours 15 minutes in which they could request to be put on the clock (some were involuntarily put on the clock in fact).

In this game, I'm guessing a fairly tense one, when it gets to 15 minutes left and you think it is going to be tight on time, then do something about it!

[ssb]

There is a context which is missing here.

Earlier the same day, the same coach was playing against a very slow opponent. He was 1TD down and had a turn with Dark Elfs to pick up the ball and score, rerolls in hand I believe (I could be wrong on that). The referees would not let him take his turn and so he lost the game that he was highly likey to have drawn.

That is, at last, something that explains the situation...

[ssb]

As regards the game ending- the entire weekend, it was made very, very clear, every round, that when the clock ran out it was dice down, no extensions, whether the game had finished or not. As numerous posts have mentioned- chess clocks were available (and players could easily have timed games on their phones if required), and if either player had any fears they might not finish within the time they had 2 hours 15 minutes in which they could request to be put on the clock (some were involuntarily put on the clock in fact).

In this game, I'm guessing a fairly tense one, when it gets to 15 minutes left and you think it is going to be tight on time, then do something about it!

I don't agree at all with this.
Fair-play, is not something negociable in my opinion.

That said, in my opinion, the time problem is something that has two ways to be sorted out :
- Everybody has a timer.
- Not everybody has a timer (and there is a general clock/timer)

The only way you can enforce strict time regulation is to put a timer all the time, for everybody. (not just for the slow ones)
If you don't do that, there is, to the core of the problem, no fairness in time splitting between opponents that don't have a timer.
As a consequence, 10 seconds out of the time frame is not something that should ever be a problem.


Of course, you can disagree with me...

[plasmoid]

Hi ssb,
I know the opponent wasn't being particularly gentlemanly.
Even so, I think it is too easy to complain about someone else, rather than look at ones own fault.

Like it or not, it had been stated repeatedly, that the rules for the tournament was that when top was over, it was "dice cups down = no more rolls."
Fair play could have come in at any point before this, but once time was over, you would not be asking for fair play - you'd be asking for breaking the tournament rules.
Sure, he could still have done so, but it is no longer the same as just "fair play".

The rules were very clear. And repeated over and over.
There was a big friggin timer on the wall.
And chess clocks were available.
And tournament organizers specifically asked us all te be grown ups about time management.
I.e. take responsibility. Get a timer. Set the timer to the right ammount. Use an app. Anything.

I certainly don't agree that for Things to be fair, everybody would have to have a timer.
There were no rules preventing anyone from getting a timer from turn 3, 1st half, if they felt the game was going slow.
In the vast vast majority of games, there was no problem.

As stated earlier, I'm sorry to hear that these things happened.
I would have been upset about the reroll thing, and bummed out about the timer thing.
But at least the timer thing could have been avoided.
Easily.
Cheers
Martin

[ssb]

I certainly don't agree that for Things to be fair, everybody would have to have a timer.

I never intended to say such a thing...

Maybe my english is so bad that that is what you understood.
Please, read me again and try to understand my point, not build an argument against my wording.
Bear in mind that english is not my mother tongue...

As stated earlier, I'm sorry to hear that these things happened.
I would have been upset about the reroll thing, and bummed out about the timer thing.

So yes, rules are rules...

But strangely, moraly, you seem to agree with me...
(isn't fair-play only a moral ground ?)



Well, all this discussion is indeed very interesting.
In France, we have had one tournament who acted this way, even more strict I think because the referees came to all the tables and pro-actively ended the games on spot at the indicated time.
Well, it destroyed the reputation of the tournament for a few years.
Maybe this question is cultural...

[Jip]

Maybe this question is cultural...

That's a good point, though I see it as the culture of competitiveness, rather than Spain, England, France etc.

I had a game where a key dice roll (of mine) ended up ever so slightly cocked off the edge of a dice mat - with a result that would mean a fail.

Whilst I could have argued (as Hawka, very clearly, said at the start of the tournament) that the dice wasn't flat on the board and should be re-rolled, and a spectator gave me a look to suggest the same, it felt a bit of an arsehole thing to do, so I didn't.

Now, if I was super-competitive, maybe I would have made the game awkward by arguing that point, which would improve my chances of winning.

Things like reminding your opponent of certain skills on your team, letting them know they're forgotten an armour roll, pointing out that a roll they are about to make isn't necessary (miscounting squares and making GFIs, for example) isn't part of the rules, a coach that does these things is less likely to win.

The fact is, if the last dice roll of the game was to cause a meaningless casualty, make a cinematic (but pointless) Long Bomb, comedy foul with a Minotaur etc., some people would be more likely to let that happen after the round time has officially ended than with an action that could win, lose or draw a game.

I get an increasingly uncomfortable sense, brought about by conversations like this, that I need to develop a level of gamesmanship that is a bit unfair or awkward, to give myself an edge in this game.

[ssb]

Maybe this question is cultural...

That's a good point, though I see it as the culture of competitiveness, rather than Spain, England, France etc.

Well, if you go on the french forum, you'll see that nobody vouches for the "yeah he was right to stop the game because you were probably 10 seconds outside the time limit".
And nobody amongts our players, would enforce such a thing (So they say, and also this is what I think until proven wrong).

I know that our selection of player from France are "sent by the french community". And as such, they seek to win, but also give a good image of our Blood Bowl community.

I will not, of course, vouch that every french player is gifted with fair-play.
But I am inclined to think that the player we send to the Eurobowl are careful to try to act with fair play because of the way they are selected.
(I don't know how the others do, so I'm not judging in any way... I just talk about what I think I know.)

And, winning with a fair-play attitude is, to me, more honorable...

That said, this said player has earned a bad reputation amongst french players.
And for game's fair-play and ethics for things to come, that is not a good thing.
Vendetta (even by strict rules use) is never a good thing.
(I am speculating but you never can forsee how players can react when they play against somebody with a certain reputation)

I get an increasingly uncomfortable sense, brought about by conversations like this, that I need to develop a level of gamesmanship that is a bit unfair or awkward, to give myself an edge in this game.

I deeply understand you.
And that is also troubling to me.

[Itchen Masack]

Devils advocate here as we have heard nothing from the coach who's reputation is being attacked so freely. What would his point of view be?

Perhaps he played a guy who got a free re-roll when he was out, who wasted a lot of playing time arguing decisions and maybe played slowly meaning the time ran out? That cant have been a fun match to sit at. Would you be in the mood to let a guy play on after the official timer ended. A timer the organisers were so clear about being the absolute end to play?

[ssb]

Devils advocate here as we have heard nothing from the coach who's reputation is being attacked so freely. What would his point of view be?

Of course, the other side's story is always interesting to have.
and...
Yes we have had some of "the other side's story", on the "Time Problem". (Not on the "Reroll Incident" if I recall correctly)
A context has been provided.

Just read the whole post (topic?), you'll find it.



But all of this gives JIP's last sentence even more strengh...

[dreamscreator]

I think this has escalated so much, and people is taking so far.

Leaving a part the discussion about the time. I'm Spanish, but playing in England from the start, so maybe I'm influenced by the British rule spirit where "when the time is gone, dice down". In other hand, probably if I saw that the time is running out I would suggest to the player speed his game, but that's other story.

What I'm bit shocked is by this:

That said, this said player has earned a bad reputation amongst french players.
And for game's fair-play and ethics for things to come, that is not a good thing.
Vendetta (even by strict rules use) is never a good thing.
(I am speculating but you never can forsee how players can react when they play against somebody with a certain reputation

Really? Bad reputation for this? I don't think is fair to be honest. I haven't listen other players earning bad reputation for do the same, and we have listen that happen to the other player. He accepted the rules and that's it.

Should the dice cup kicker earn bad reputation for that action? And then see if other players play against him reacting different?

I don't think so. It was a bad reaction or decision in that moment. Probably if I play against him I will do a bad joke about kicking dice cups, and relax and play as always. But just my opinion.

[ssb]

Hey hey hey.

I am not trying to escalate things.
I am just describing what I think I see and what I speculate could happen.
(this is MY speculation and MY interpretation of things)

I hesitated to post this peculiar point because I did have the intuition it could be perceived in this way.
I tried to put many "hypothesis" and "speculations" in it to describe the perverse effects this kind of hardcore rules application could have and how exploiting them could worsen it.

All I am aiming at is just trying to make all points and potential (I said "potential") consequences heard so that the global experience in tournament goes to a higher degree.


Please, see this kind of discussion as a way to try to improve things.

If, by saying what I am saying, I am just worsening things I will quit talking.
As maybe my english is not subtle enough to convey nuances expected to get the debate in a good direction.


If this is the case, then I'll just be sorry I said conterproductive stuff and regret having expressed myself.

[dreamscreator]

Hey hey hey.

I am not trying to escalate things.
I am just describing what I think I see and what I speculate could happen.
(this is MY speculation and MY interpretation of things)

No, no, I wasn't referring to you in particular, if not in general. And not for the discussion about how to manage the reroll problem, or the timing. I think that's important and can improve future Eurobowls/open and World Cups.

I was referring more about what you said that in the forum the coach has earn bad reputation, or some message that speak about that coach in particular.

The general discussion I think is important and can improve the things. Point to the coach I think is wrong.

As maybe my english is not subtle enough to convey nuances expected to get the debate in a good direction.

As Spanish native speaker living in British land, I can assure you that I understand you

[ssb]

Ok...

I just want this discussion to stay on the point of trying to better things.

Every way of doing things (rules, the way they are enforced, etc.) have their bias.
Knowing about these bias is always constructive.

That is my point.

I was referring more about what you said that in the forum the coach has earn bad reputation, or some message that speak about that coach in particular.

You cannot control the reputation of someone once things have been said about a situation.
To moderate what I said about what I perceived : What people say in the heat of their reaction and what they will do later on are two separate things.

All a player can wish for, is that that kind of talking isn't generated because there is no reason (at all!) for it to exist.

[mawph]

I had a game where a key dice roll (of mine) ended up ever so slightly cocked off the edge of a dice mat - with a result that would mean a fail.

Whilst I could have argued (as Hawka, very clearly, said at the start of the tournament) that the dice wasn't flat on the board and should be re-rolled, and a spectator gave me a look to suggest the same, it felt a bit of an arsehole thing to do, so I didn't.

Now, if I was super-competitive, maybe I would have made the game awkward by arguing that point, which would improve my chances of winning.

On this point, I try to play that everything off flat is to be rerolled. I generally suffer from the fact that I don't always remember to clarify this before it crops up in the game. Against my most frequent opponent, we tend to go with the approach of "ask the opponent" whether a dice is flat or not. Happened within the last couple of weeks and I (with quite a grim look on my face, I'll admit - ask Leipziger about the rivalry between me and monkeytrumpet ) said: "nah, that's flat" as he passed a roll I'd really like him to have failed. I'd hope that I'd manage replicate that whatever the circumstance, except maybe with a less bereft look on my face The act of asking suggests it's questionable, but also still relies on the game being conducted in a happy manner (and me not losing myself in a blatent desire to win at all costs)

[Smeborg]

CULTURE AND COMPETITIVENESS
--------------------------------------
It is possible that a highly competitive culture exists among some of the more highly ranked French coaches, and that the spirit in which they play the game differs from their counterparts in some other countries.

I say so because at the Amsterdam World Cup, I played against such a French player (IIRC he was the highest ranked coach for his race at the conclusion of the tourney) who was part of a rather good and keen team (they thrashed us 5.5 to 0.5, though we had a good tourney, finishing 10th out of 80 teams). He was one of the slowest players I have played against in a tourney (taking at least twice, possibly thrice as much time as me), several times moved a key player 1 more square than his MA (requiring correction from me), and tried to carry on playing the best part of a whole turn after the (imposed) clock had expired (and the referee had asked him to stop playing). He ignored the referee's directive, only stopping play when his turn 16 one-turn-score attempt failed. In other respects, this coach was well mannered, and we had a tough, interesting, and hard fought game.

Without the excellent tourney rules and referee, I would have lost the match on time, instead of drawing it on turn 16. I expect I would have been rather miffed. It was a great comfort to me during the game that I had the backstop of the imposed clock and the referee - it meant I did not need to get stressed. We were the last game of our team to finish.

I know this is only a sample of one, but perhaps it points to a sub-culture within French BB. I make no sweeping claim beyond that.