Amazon Team

[Trambi]

Galak let's discuss about dragon ogres in the DFC topic House rules>>New positions ...

[Anonymous]

I say all those folks that bought that silly unicorn fig should chop off his head and add an Amazon blitzer upper body to it to make a centaur. Something like:

8337 Sure Feet, Sprint

or maybe

7437 Sure Feet (closer to the difference between CDB and BC)

Blood Bowl players must have hands!

[Dragoonkin]

I'm interested.
Who thinks that the Amazons need more than what they get officially?

Should they get:
a) Nothing - they rock anyway
b) 2 Extra catchers - why do they only get 2 when the humies get 4?
c) A big guy - a Kroxigor
d) A big Guy - an ogre
e) A big Guy - the Unicorn
f) A big guy - something else (please specify)
g) Something else (please specify)

I'm interested in the feedback.

I play 'zons right now and the issue I'm having is that I have no Strength. Anywhere. At all. So the 'zons aren't a hitting team...

Then I realize I have no speed anywhere. Everyone's MA6. So the 'zons aren't a running team, either...

Oh look...everyone's Agi3...not a passing team either.

So what are they? They're a "I don't fall down much if you hit me" team. Which doesn't make for much in the way of touchdowns... Basically, IMO, 'zons need something to define themselves as either a running, passing, or hitting team. Either increasing MA for some players, or giving some hitting power (a Big Guy) will give a little distinction as to what type of team they are...but for me as it stands basically they're a half-formed all-out defensive team, to start with. But all-out defense doesn't win you games, often.

[Marcus]

but for me as it stands basically they're a half-formed all-out defensive team, to start with. But all-out defense doesn't win you games, often.

I disagree. All out defence will win you almost every game. If you can score every time you kick to the opponent you will never lose - because you keep getting the ball back.

I would suggest you're oversimplifying what you need on a team to be able to score. "no high ST, can't be a hitting team. no high AG, can't be a passing team" is a little simplistic IMO. Dwarves have ST3 across the board and play a good power game. Humans are AG3 all round and are one of the best option passing teams around. Chaos only move 6 and I rate them one of the best open-running style teams.

What Amazons have that they can take advantage of is access to blodge for every player on the pitch; plus an increased ability to move players into good field position to stymie the opposition. These 2 abilities add up to a team that forces a lot of rerolls from the opposition and a lot of failed blocks. Any team that forces errors is onto a good thing.

What you need to do beef up the team is make some intelligent skill choices. It's what every other team has to do to make up for their own deficiencies. Need more speed? Look at sprint, sure feet, jump up and passblock. Need more hitting power? Save your doubles for guard. Playing a passing game? Build a star thrower and invest in Nerves of Steel for recievers.

The lack of raw stats on the amazon team does not mean that the rules need reworking. It simply means a coach needs to be more focussed in terms of exactly what they want to get out of their team.

Marcus

[Vesticle]

Galak, out of curiosity what are you using to compute those thrower costs? Both the Amazon and Norse throwers are 6337 with 2 skills, so wouldn't their cost be the same?

As for Amazon's, I'd say A) Re-read Galak's post, he makes some good points, B) Look at the MBBL rankings, and see where the Amazon teams are ranked, C) Read any posts or strategy discussions made by some of the winning Amazon coaches.

Personally I find Dodge to be one of those skills with a lot of indirect utility... it just takes a bit of thoughtfulness to use well, as opposed to Lizardman Saurus or Wood Elf Catcher who all but come with instruction labels...

Dodge means a couple things. Most obviously, it's harder to knock you over on a block. On both offense and defense, it means that it's harder to gain assists, create holes, and the more people you have standing, the more scoring and blitzing threats that he has to cover. It also means you have less chances of being injured, and less chance of being victim to fouling. On offense it means it's harder to knock your ball carrier down to cause a turnover, on defense it means it's harder to knock your players off their ball carriers or receivers.

Secondly, it lets you re-roll dodging rolls. At the start of a season, AG3 with Dodge gives you a 3+ with a re-roll, for a total of a 8/9th chance to dodge. Agility 4 gives you a 2+, but that only equates to a 5/6th chance. The dodging gives you more control over where your players are positioned, and makes them harder to pin in place where your opponent wants them. This means more assists for you, and easier time advancing and positioning receivers and the ball carrier on offense, and an easier time putting TZs between your opponent and the end zone on defense.

Thirdly, it has some good benefits and combos in the long-run. Having all your players on your team start with an agility skill, means combos that other teams would have a much more difficult time accomplishing (and I think many people would say that Dodge is like Block: one of the most basic, versatile, and useful skills of the bunch, and one that'd be at the top of their list to acquire). This is especially true of their Blitzers, who have access to Strength skills. Stand Firm, Block, and Dodge makes for one of the most annoying players I can think of, and for the Amazon Blitzers it only requires a single doubles roll.

Fourthly their re-rolls are cheap. The cheapest of any team in the game, and that along with relatively cheap players, means the ability to boost just about any part of your game, as needed. A Black Orc Blocker normally has 2 block dice to knock someone over. An Amazon Blitzer with a re-roll has 2 block dice to knock someone over *and* the block skill. An Ogre costs 120k. For the same price, you could get 3 re-rolls for an Amazon team. That means you get to re-roll any action, on 37.5% of the turns you take in the game...

The one problem I could see is playing a Dwarf team... I'm not really sure how to handle that one. Maybe someone with more experience could say something on the subject?

David

[GalakStarscraper]

Vesticle:

There are many different ways to cost a player.

The formula I use only counts the Pass skill on a player as 10k if they are AG3 ...

There are a number of different formula used by folks ... just using the 4 best ones that I've ever been presented you get this:

JJ's straight formula: 50k-20k(AV7)+20k(Pass)+20k(Dodge)=70k
Galak's formula: 50k-20k(AV7)+10k(AG3 Pass)+20k(Dodge)=60k
Pink Horror's formula: 50k-15k(AV7)+15k(Pass)+15k(Dodge)=65k
bjorn's formula: 50k-10k(AV7)+10k(Pass)+10k(Dodge)+10k(Passing skills)=70k

Compare to the Norse thrower on the 4 methods:
JJ's straight formula: 50k-20k(AV7)+20k(Pass)+20k(Block)=70k
Galak's formula: 50k-20k(AV7)+10k(AG3 Pass)+30k(Block)=70k
Pink Horror's formula: 50k-15k(AV7)+15k(Pass)+20k(Block)=70k
bjorn's formula: 50k-10k(AV7)+10k(Pass)+10k(Block)+10k(Passing skills)=70k

Take it for what its worth ... based on the other thrower positions in BB. I believe that the Amazon Thrower is overcosted by 10k. Is it something I see as a drastic problem .... nope. The question was asked to me what would I tweak on the Amazon team given the chance ... I would lower the cost of the Thrower by 10k.

Galak

It should be noted that the rest of the Amazon team is pretty dead on:

Linewoman:
JJ: 50k .. Galak: 50k .. PH: 50k .. bjorn: 50k
Catcher:
JJ: 70k .. Galak: 70k .. PH: 60k .. bjorn: 70k
Blitzer:
JJ: 70k .. Galak: 90k .. PH: 90k .. bjorn: 70k

Its how I got the Numba Cruncha avatar name (continuously trying to create a math model for BB) .... now in MY opinion the Amazon team is perfectly priced except for the Thrower which is 10k over, but that's just my two cents.

Galak

[Pink Horror]

Hey Galak, after your e-mail I thought I'd go looking to see how you put my formula to use, and look at this! I see you have an old version. Maybe I'll have to send you that unfinished spreadsheet after all.

My method is based on having a bit of fudge factor left for every player, so I include a lot of 5k amounts.

Anyway, here's an updated version -

Norse
Lineman: 50k - 15k(AV7) + 20k(Block) = 55k
Thrower: 55k + 15k(Pass) = 70k
Catcher: 55k + 10k(Catch) = 65k
Blitzer: 55k + 10k(Frenzy) + 10k(Frenzy+Block) + 15k(Jump Up) = 90k

Amazon
Lineman: 50k - 15k(AV7) + 20k(Dodge) = 55k
Thrower: 55k + 15k(Pass) = 70k
Catcher: 55k + 10k(Catch) = 65k
Blitzer: 55k + 20k(Block) + 10k(Block+Dodge) = 85k

This fudge factor I include allowed me to get within 5k on almost every player from 4th edition. I didn't update the spreadsheet since. Only 5 players from 4th edition aren't within my fudge factor range:

Orc Thrower: 70k vs. 60k
Kroxigor: 130k vs. 122.5k
Squire Thrower: 70k vs. 60k
Bloodthirster: 240k vs. 272.5k
Lord of Change: 240k vs. 218k



Pink Horror