Speeding up the game.

neoliminal · Post by **neoliminal** » Fri Jun 07, 2002 11:17 pm

I've been thinking for a long time about ways to speed up the game. I'd like to hear other peoples ideas for speeding the game up and share with you some of the crazy idea's I've had. Here's a short list:

Batch blocking. What if you could have a batch dice roll for blocking? You could, for example, have a blocking phase where you resolved all your blocks at once. You would roll a batch of block dice for every player in contact with another player. This could increase the speed of the game.

X number of actions per team turn. Prescribe a set number of actions per turn. For example, if you could only take 6 actions per turn, then things might move along faster. You would need to find the "sweet spot" for the number of actions taken. Enough actions that you felt you were getting things done, but few enough that you increased the speed. The sweet spot might also be a ratio based on the number of players... for example, half the players... so if you have 11 players on the pitch, then 5 can take actions.

Streamline some mechanics. Some mechanics take a long time. For example, scattering the ball in a crowd. You might change the rule to state that you simply get no chance to catch the ball if you have more than one TZ on you. I'd like to record a game and find the mechanics that take the most time.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Sat Jun 08, 2002 1:11 am

Sorry ... neominal ... all 3 of those don't sound any fun to me personally.

Yeah the game takes a while ... but I hate to start throwing things in the bonfire unnecessarily for the sake of a little bit more speed.

Plus, doing all that wouldn't change the speed that I play 99% of my games anymore anyway since all those time consuming things are automated.

Galak

neoliminal · Post by **neoliminal** » Sat Jun 08, 2002 5:47 am

Well, playing PBEM is a seperate world altogether. You don't really are how long it takes, because you can spread it around.

I agree that none of the methods would be "more fun" except you might get more than one face to face game in one night. I'd love to get two or three games in on a single weeknight... if I have to give up a few extra move actions to make that happen, then I'm all for it.

Of course I haven't tested any of these, so I'm not sure what they feel like... which will probably be the best test of all.

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Sat Jun 08, 2002 7:50 am

Hi Neo,
haven't you done enough

3rd edition cut gametime from 5-6 to 2-3 hours. Thats pretty good.
IMO, what takes the most time is checking out the other guys roster/players to see what skills they've earned.
At least thats a time consumer once teams reach TR 250+.

Then again, you've cut down on the multiple skill monsters with the ageing rules.

If anything, why not apply the 4 minute time limit to setting up your team? Thats the point where things can bog down a lot.

IMO - gametime is fine.
If you want to cut down gametime, don't meddle with the mechanics - but you could cut down each half to 6 turns. (But why would you

)

Martin

mctom · Post by **mctom** » Sat Jun 08, 2002 7:59 am

I agree with neoliminal on this one. It would be great if the game could be made faster. I would love to be able to play a couple of more games in a night.

When we play we use the time limit of four minutes. What often happens is that people tend to use the full four minutes even if they really do not have to. Typically a couple of not so important actions are saved and if the important stuff is successful, the remaing time is used for thinking about the not so important actions.

What about having a time limit for the complete half and not for every turn? Lets say that the total time for a half would be 24 minutes for each player. That makes an average of 3 minutes per turn instead of 4. Possibly saving up to 30 minutes. Also, if I have to save time for future turns I think I would play the game faster and focus only on the important stuff (I would hate to run out of time in the end). I can also choose to use more time for a specific turn and play other turns faster.

I have not really thought this through and by no means play tested it.

mctom

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Sat Jun 08, 2002 8:52 am

Hi mcTom,
interesting.

But it would require GW to produce timers of some kind, and that may be a big problem.

BTW, we used to play 2nd ed with chess-clocks. (45min pr. team).
It was awesome!
Not only was it great fun, but it also cut gametime from 5-6 hours to 2.

Martin

mctom · Post by **mctom** » Sat Jun 08, 2002 9:35 am

Quote from Martin: "But it would require GW to produce timers of some kind, and that may be a big problem. "

We use simple digital timers used for cooking. I bought mine for about 7$. Of course you would need two of them for a game.

mctom

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Sat Jun 08, 2002 10:18 am

Hi again McTom,
sorry - I jumped to conclusions.

since it was neoliminal who asked, I assumed that he was looking for ideas that could be made into official rules.

As an official rule, the time limit might become a problem.
After all, it would be pretty nasty to have the rulebook say:"you're playing to a time limit, now go buy a timer!"

But, I still like the idea.
Martin

Dangerous Dave · Post by **Dangerous Dave** » Sat Jun 08, 2002 1:08 pm

OK I agree that it would be nice to be able to play games faster...so first of all, what takes the time?

Well 32 4 minute turns = 2 hours 8 mins.

Setting up = 10 mins

Pre-game stuff = 10 mins

Kick Offs (inc team set-up) = 15 mins (assuming no blitzes)

Post game stuff = 10 mins

Clear up = 7 mins

Total = 3 hours

So the biggest saving is fairly obviously the 32 turns. OK so what can be done...

Reduce the number of turns - why? effectively you are reducing the amount of Bloodbowl in each game so you may play more games but each game has less in it. IMO this will benefit fast / agile teams. So not a good option.

Reduce the time per turn. This is possible. But things like Side Step, throw ins will severely handicap the moving team. If the time was 3 mins the saving is at most only 30 mins - so this is not going to make too much difference (from 3 hours to 2.5). 2 mins would make a difference but the game will degenerate into who makes the least mistakes!

Limited number of actions. This may reduce the time for some turns. However, I suspect that a lot of time will be spent working out my best (say) 6 actions - so I don't think this will work.

Reduce the number of players on the pitch. This would certainly make the game run faster - however, the tactics would also change significantly and IMO this would create a big advantage for the faster, agile teams. To combat this the pitch could be narrowed..... I think not.

OK so what's the conclusion. Well, to speed it up I think tht you cannot tinker, you must change the mechanics significantly. One thing though may be to make it so that each Coach takes turns to perform actions with one player (like Chess) - however, this could become blitz followed by blitz. In addition, the length of games would have to be changed, so it doesn't necessarily make the game faster (if the game is played to the first to 2 goals, getting the kick off is a big plus). Perhaps you could have a set number of moves per team with the ball before you must "kick" (or throw or drop!) it away - like Rugby League's 6 tackle rule. However, all this is a significant departure from the current game so is likely to make a worse game.

Well, I tried! Perhaps the best way to speed the game up is to make a roll of 7 on the Kick Off table a Riot.... but then I doubt this is a good idea!

Dave

neoliminal · Post by **neoliminal** » Sat Jun 08, 2002 2:30 pm

plasmoid wrote:Hi again McTom,
sorry - I jumped to conclusions.
since it was neoliminal who asked, I assumed that he was looking for ideas that could be made into official rules.

I should point out that I'm not interested in making this an official rule. I keep forgetting that having "Rulez Guru" under my name makes people have certain assumptions.

This isn't for the world at large... yet.

Acerak · Post by **Acerak** » Sat Jun 08, 2002 2:36 pm

I think the game flows fine right now provided you use the time limit and enforce turnovers when players hit the wall. Heck, if you played with a 3-minute time limit you'd shave almost half an hour off a full game.

-Chet

lawquoter · Post by **lawquoter** » Sat Jun 08, 2002 2:38 pm

I'm really unsure the speed of the game can really be fixed without overhauling the way the game works now. Why are games 3 hours as it is? A lot of reasons have been mentioned (number of turns, number of actions, number of players on the pitch, etc.). I think all of these together make up the core fiber of the game. I really think the best way to make a coach move along, so to speak, is the time limit per turn. Perhaps another idea, if others are seriously interested in moving the games along, is to limit the number of re-rolls a side has in a half. I've found that the worse luck and more re-rolls a coach has, the more he uses the re-rolls. This undoubtedly slows things down, but probably not by very much. But I would imagine it would really make for an exciting (or frustrating) game if instead of numerous re-rolls, teams would have so many per half (1 or 2), which would be similar to NFL football, in which teams have only 3 time outs per half, and once they're used, they're gone. I'm not sure this would be effective in speeding up the game, or whether it is a good rule (watch me GFI for the score w/o my requisite number of re-rolls only to fall on my face, then I'd thrilled with my brilliance

). I guess I'm more or less happy with the speed as it is, but I completely understand those who have a free night would like to get 2 or 3 games in and be home by a reasonable hour.

SBG · Post by **SBG** » Sat Jun 08, 2002 3:04 pm

I'd have to disagree on this one. Yes it takes some time, but this time is needed and IMO, justified. Four minutes is sometimes tricky for beginners, but still fair enough so that they can quickly learn, and to represent American Football (because I thnik this is alos one of the goals of the game), you have to let everybody take an action in a turn.

So many occasions to commit errors happen during a game that can cut your play time short (fumbles, failed pick-ups, damn double skulls...) are more than enough for me. How much time does it take to play chess? Risk? Diplomacy? Even Monopoly! Games that needs strategy take time to play, that's all !

Fred

sean newboy · Post by **sean newboy** » Sat Jun 08, 2002 3:15 pm

3rd edition cut gametime from 5-6 to 2-3 hours

holy cow! 2nd edition took 5-6 hours??? Praise Sotek i started with 3rd.

I'd love to get two or three games in on a single weeknight

Go to the Southbend Indiana League, even once they changed the closing time to midnite we could still get in 2 games. Course then we had to spend 3-4 hours talking bloodbowl outside lol, but thats all good.

Personally i think the time is decent, i feel i still get more done in the same time that i would in 40k or fantasy.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Sat Jun 08, 2002 4:27 pm

Sean,

When did you play in the South Bend league? I played in the 1st season and I'm not sure I remember you. I've met Jim (Ombi), but that first season was huge: 20+ teams. I finished in the top 3 for the regular season, but that was the season that the Dwarves won everything but the Semi-finals.

But Sean is right, in the South Bend league, we used to get in 2 easy ... often 3 on Blood Bowl night ... playing from 6 pm to close which I seem to remember was 2 am then you talked about the game outside for an hour and then you'd all go over to Denny's to grab breakfast at 3 am to discuss some more. AHHHH .... yes, I remember those bachelor days in the South Bend league quite well..... sigh ... still order all my gaming supplies and Magic cards from Mark since he was such a great store owner.

Galak