Would you buy a team in digital?

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Would you buy a team in digital? (files to be printed)

Yes, if the price is around 15$ or less for 18 minis or more
10
29%
No, I don't want to get swamped in the 3D printing world
25
71%
 
Total votes: 35

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Regash
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Re: Would you buy a team in digital?

Post by Regash »

I think the difference between green stuff sculpting and 3D modeling is the same as it is with Heavy Metal or Pop music. Or real actors and computer animated movies.

Pop music is made in a computer, artist like Britney Spears don't need a band. If something doesn't sound right, you can always tweak ist or, worst case, go back to an earlier stage of production. It's the same with 3D modeling. Something doesn't look right? No problem, change that part, delete and redo it or reload an earlier version of the miniature. You don't like the facial expression of an animated charakter? Or the lighting? Go back, edit it and render it again. Problem solved.

Heavy Metal means some guys actually had to learn how to play their instruments, have to actually play to keep the fingers nimble and you can hear each and every mistake they make. Have you heard of a 'humanizer'? It's a device to make slight timing errors with a drum machine to make it sound more 'real', more like actually played by a drummer instead of a machine.
Sculpting with putty is the same to me. It's someones skill showing, there is no going back, no reloading. An actor has his looks, his style, his way of acting.

The result still may be music. And some good looking miniatures. An awesome movie.
But in the end, people my age tend to prefer the skillful art made by the hand of an artist, clearly showing his skills.
Electronic music sounds pretty 'dead' to my ears and I love to see a band playing live on stage as a unit, together.
And isn't the actors work more impressive than the animated charakter?

It's all a matter of taste, I guess.
But I'm not a Pedro Ramos fanboy for no reason.
If Lemmy Kilmister is god for music, Pedro is for sculpting. :wink:
I think Solitaire and me just appreciate work like Pedros more than some 3D modeled sculpts, that's all.

Oh, one more thing you might have to consider before you jump into action and sell sculpt files:
The music industry had an excellent idea! Wouldn't it be great if they could save a lot of money when not actually producing CDs with music but make the people buy them online, download the music and cover arts and print their own CDs? Well, they hat the MP3 format developed, made by FRaunhofer Institut, here in Germany. And what happened? Napster popped up and they never got the copying under control anymore. Can you make sure that your work doesn't end up on some file sharing site, making people print their miniatures without even thinking about who made it with what effort?

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Re: Would you buy a team in digital?

Post by Questron »

the solitaire wrote:
Questron wrote:
Really? Because I would say that this is a sculpt

https://www.facebook.com/44124225925591 ... =3&theater

(and everything you can find in that page of us :D)
No, it's a 3D render. No offence.
Euh... no, it's a sculpt :) It's a miniature printed in metal, painted in watercolors, from the famous Relic Knights series... :lol:

So, you can't note the difference between real things and renders ? Uhm :roll: :) ironic and funny at the same time *no offence* :)
the solitaire wrote:
Questron wrote:
Oh well, I don't want to sound rude, but you clearly don't know what you are talking about... We don't work with "pixels", or "vectors" :) We don't use hammers, but the mouse... It's the skill and the art's appreciation what's important, not the tool :)
You are right in me not knowing much of the current developments in 3D geberated images. The last I did was some Autocad and 3D studio Max. I bet you young guys do not even know what I'm talking about,
Well, thanks for supossing me a younger :) I possibly have more years than you, doh :D And yes, I know 3D Studio (not Max, just simply 3D studio, remember V2.0?) :D Did you tryed Sculpt3D software in the Amiga 1000 computer? I did :)
the solitaire wrote:
Questron wrote: but those were the programs that eventually led to the tools you use nowadays. You are not entirely wrong regarding the skill thing, but going into the finer details of handwriting and signature styles would have me write a book rather then a post in an internet forum. Let's just say that a mouse or graphic tablet does not give you the signature a set of sculpting tools and putty would.
Let me showing you something :) These are some works of four sculpters from our studio

Emilio's works:

https://www.facebook.com/44124225925591 ... =3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/44124225925591 ... =3&theater

Alexey's works:

https://www.facebook.com/44124225925591 ... =3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/44124225925591 ... =3&theater

Jon's works:

https://www.facebook.com/44124225925591 ... =3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/44124225925591 ... =3&theater


Jeff's Works:

https://www.facebook.com/44124225925591 ... =3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/conanminiature ... =3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/44124225925591 ... =3&theater

Can you see the different "signatures" here? Again, it's not about the tool, but the artist :D
Questron wrote: ... Adobe? that's not doing art!
the solitaire wrote: I'm a photographer and I agree with this statement. Adobe and Art are mutually exclusive because I could write/film a tutorial for the process and everyone will be able to reproduce my results.
Are you really a photographer? I mean, do you make a living of being a photographer, thinking like that?
the solitaire wrote: Same goes for your 3D renders. After a few tutorials and an investment in software I could do that.
I hope that with the examples showed above you change your mind from today... but just in case, I could tell you that "NO, YOU COULDN'T" :) It needs a LOT of natural knowledge about proportions, a natural born skill to do this stuff... you can't learn it from tutorials... again, I heared a lot of that stuff against photographers, that's why I'm very shocked to hear that from one...
the solitaire wrote: As to the medieval reference, if you ever looked into miniature sculpting or any form of sculpting in the true sensze you will see that people make their own crude tools in that trade. They do so because they create a handwriting style with their tools that can not be copied by others. That is where Art exists.
I defy anybody to copy any of our sculpts (without the original files, of course hahaha)
the solitaire wrote: Now enough with all the getting off topic stuff.
Oh no, I think we are very on-topic (I can tell you, I created this thread hahaha)
the solitaire wrote:
I just have to bring up the example to make clear what I'm talking about. Here is a company that did not think through the production and logistics behind putting a product on the market:


https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/amaz ... #/comments
Oh that! Aham... have you heared about "Total Extinction"? "Heroquest 25th Anniversary" ? there's a case like that almost every day in this bussiness... That's not the problem of being sculpter in digital or in greens, the problem of that is being a responsible and legal bussinessman, or being a pirate greedy of money that gets enlist in one enterprise that he didn't know how will ends... Nothing to do or be compared with the 3D printing, I tell you
the solitaire wrote:
And in the end I do not make a difference whether the product is digital or analogue. You want to sell a product but do not want to deal with logistics. That leaves you with 2 options. Pay someone to deal with logistics or don't market the product.

:wink:
Really? That never came to my head before you saying it! :) But there's even more options than that in the market :D

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Re: Would you buy a team in digital?

Post by Questron »

Regash wrote:I think the difference between green stuff sculpting and 3D modeling is the same as it is with Heavy Metal or Pop music. Or real actors and computer animated movies.
Euh... I disagree totally in not one, but many statements of that :)
Regash wrote: Pop music is made in a computer, artist like Britney Spears don't need a band. If something doesn't sound right, you can always tweak ist or, worst case, go back to an earlier stage of production. It's the same with 3D modeling. Something doesn't look right? No problem, change that part, delete and redo it or reload an earlier version of the miniature.
Really you shouldn't bring arguments like that if you don't ever made something in the 3D sculpting...

See... did you see the "Innsmouth Team" I'm posting in this same sub-forum? Someone asked me to light the musculature of some of the minis, and I simply told him "No, I can't do that in that stage, it's impossible without redoing the entire mini"...
I read with a smile in my face how do you add "no problem" to the "change that, delete and redo"... NO PROBLEM?!?!? If you need to do that to a 3D sculpted miniature in some stages of the sculpt work , you'll have A LOT OF PROBLEMS AMIGO, A LOT! :D ...
Regash wrote: You don't like the facial expression of an animated charakter? Or the lighting? Go back, edit it and render it again. Problem solved.
Yeah! 12 hours of work to the trashcan! Start everything from the beginning! What's the problem?

It's clear that you don't have sculpters at your management... sculpters that charge every hour of work :)

Do you really think that there's a "delete" thing, CRTL+Z? like if you were writing a text? the Typex doesn't exists in the 3D sculpt work...
Regash wrote:
It's someones skill showing, there is no going back, no reloading. An actor has his looks, his style, his way of acting.
Really, a lot of people can take your comments as offensive... Ok, I refer you too to the samples I post in the message above... My sculpters have A LOT MORE personal style and skills that many of the amateurish greens I see in a lot of works in this industry.. and I mean majors publishers...
Regash wrote: The result still may be music. And some good looking miniatures. An awesome movie.
But in the end, people my age tend to prefer the skillful art made by the hand of an artist, clearly showing his skills.
Yes, like my sculpters :) Maybe is that you guys didn't saw the works of GOOD 3D sculpters?
Regash wrote: It's all a matter of taste, I guess.
Oh, au contraire, it's a matter of knowledge.
Regash wrote: I think Solitaire and me just appreciate work like Pedros more than some 3D modeled sculpts, that's all.

Uhm, no, that's not what you both are doing... what you are doing as far as I read until this point is to tell that 3D sculpting has a deep lack of style and "spirit", and that the results are, on the most, questionable...
Regash wrote: Oh, one more thing you might have to consider before you jump into action and sell sculpt files:
The music industry had an excellent idea! Wouldn't it be great if they could save a lot of money when not actually producing CDs with music but make the people buy them online, download the music and cover arts and print their own CDs? Well, they hat the MP3 format developed, made by FRaunhofer Institut, here in Germany. And what happened? Napster popped up and they never got the copying under control anymore. Can you make sure that your work doesn't end up on some file sharing site, making people print their miniatures without even thinking about who made it with what effort?
Oh, Breaking News, anybody can copy a miniature with wax and knowledges :) I don't fear piracy, the less when you need a 3D printer to pirate my stuff :) ... anyway, I have made figures with a friend, and no, for now, the idea of selling digital to make people print their own teams isn't affordable for the public, for now...

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Re: Would you buy a team in digital?

Post by Regash »

Questron wrote:
Regash wrote:It's all a matter of taste, I guess.
Oh, au contraire, it's a matter of knowledge.
This will be the only thing I'm gonna answer to, as, from reading your reply, you didn't understand what I was trying to say.

When it comes to art, no matter which kind, it's all about taste.
Music, books, paintings, miniatures... It doesn't matter!
The people may praise an author or musician over the top and still I don't like what they did.
Why? Because it's not to my taste. That simple.
You can hire the most talented and skillful sculptors, if their style is not to my taste, I won't buy the miniatures.
That is why there are so many teams out there from different companies and they all get sold.

You may create the worlds most comfortable couch, if it looks hideous, it won't sell.

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Re: Would you buy a team in digital?

Post by Darkson »

I have to be brutally honest, and say from your replies on this thread that, even if I did have access to a 3D printer I wouldn't be comfortable buying files from yourself.
A company that is designing miniatures that doesn't want to produce it's own figures, either themselves or via a 3rd party sets off alarm bells.

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Re: Would you buy a team in digital?

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Why?

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Re: Would you buy a team in digital?

Post by the solitaire »

Questron wrote:
Uhm, no, that's not what you both are doing... what you are doing as far as I read until this point is to tell that 3D sculpting has a deep lack of style and "spirit", and that the results are, on the most, questionable...
No, what we both are doing is implying that in our opinions there is a real difference between the work you do and the work of people like Pedro Ramos and franarcilla who work with a different medium, but also have an outstanding reputation and many finished projects to speak for their skill as sculptors and artists.

(yes, I know the Amiga software you are referring to, and counter with Phillips P2000 and 3D Studio on that)
Questron wrote:
Oh, Breaking News, anybody can copy a miniature with wax and knowledges :) I don't fear piracy, the less when you need a 3D printer to pirate my stuff :) ... anyway, I have made figures with a friend, and no, for now, the idea of selling digital to make people print their own teams isn't affordable for the public, for now...
And everybody who is knowledgeable with reproduction techniques like wax can tell you that the copy of the master sculpt will look distinguishably different from the master sculpt.

I thank you for being honest enough to admit that, after doing some research, your busines plan would have left several people with purchased goods they would not be able to use because the printing is, at this moment in time, not affordable on a small scale or individual basis.

This kind of strokes with my initial response. Do your research before offering a product to the public. You came here with the question whether people had interest in such a product. I answered honestly saying that I do not, for a few different reasons. You are doing research and you learn. That's good.

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Re: Would you buy a team in digital?

Post by fromherashes »

Regash wrote:I think the difference between green stuff sculpting and 3D modeling is the same as it is with Heavy Metal or Pop music. Or real actors and computer animated movies.

Pop music is made in a computer, artist like Britney Spears don't need a band. If something doesn't sound right, you can always tweak ist or, worst case, go back to an earlier stage of production. It's the same with 3D modeling. Something doesn't look right? No problem, change that part, delete and redo it or reload an earlier version of the miniature. You don't like the facial expression of an animated charakter? Or the lighting? Go back, edit it and render it again. Problem solved.

Heavy Metal means some guys actually had to learn how to play their instruments, have to actually play to keep the fingers nimble and you can hear each and every mistake they make. Have you heard of a 'humanizer'? It's a device to make slight timing errors with a drum machine to make it sound more 'real', more like actually played by a drummer instead of a machine.
Sculpting with putty is the same to me. It's someones skill showing, there is no going back, no reloading. An actor has his looks, his style, his way of acting.

The result still may be music. And some good looking miniatures. An awesome movie.
But in the end, people my age tend to prefer the skillful art made by the hand of an artist, clearly showing his skills.
Electronic music sounds pretty 'dead' to my ears and I love to see a band playing live on stage as a unit, together.
And isn't the actors work more impressive than the animated charakter?

It's all a matter of taste, I guess.
But I'm not a Pedro Ramos fanboy for no reason.
If Lemmy Kilmister is god for music, Pedro is for sculpting. :wink:
I think Solitaire and me just appreciate work like Pedros more than some 3D modeled sculpts, that's all.

Oh, one more thing you might have to consider before you jump into action and sell sculpt files:
The music industry had an excellent idea! Wouldn't it be great if they could save a lot of money when not actually producing CDs with music but make the people buy them online, download the music and cover arts and print their own CDs? Well, they hat the MP3 format developed, made by FRaunhofer Institut, here in Germany. And what happened? Napster popped up and they never got the copying under control anymore. Can you make sure that your work doesn't end up on some file sharing site, making people print their miniatures without even thinking about who made it with what effort?
You have a fundamentally poor understanding of recording and making various types of music.

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Re: Would you buy a team in digital?

Post by Regash »

fromherashes wrote:You have a fundamentally poor understanding of recording and making various types of music.
If you say so... okay!

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Re: Would you buy a team in digital?

Post by fromherashes »

Regash wrote:
fromherashes wrote:You have a fundamentally poor understanding of recording and making various types of music.
If you say so... okay!
As a musician and producer, yes, I do.

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Re: Would you buy a team in digital?

Post by the solitaire »

fromherashes wrote:
Regash wrote:
fromherashes wrote:You have a fundamentally poor understanding of recording and making various types of music.
If you say so... okay!
As a musician and producer, yes, I do.
Now things get really interesting. So we have 3D sculptors, photographers, musicians and producers in one thread argueing and all it takes is a railroad engineer to do the miniature producing right. :lol:

Any examples of your musicianing for us to enjoy fromherashes?

My real name is Buddy btw. Dutch born but registered as an independant photographer in Germany

PS: I'm with Regash on the musical front.
Prefer metal over other styles. I personally know a few musicians and 2 or 3 producers as well, and I think that what makes a good musician is the ability to pick up an instrument and play something that causes me to fall silent and listen in awe, without the support of a band or a studio full of gimmicks.

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Re: Would you buy a team in digital?

Post by fromherashes »

the solitaire wrote:
Now things get really interesting. So we have 3D sculptors, photographers, musicians and producers in one thread argueing and all it takes is a railroad engineer to do the miniature producing right. :lol:

Any examples of your musicianing for us to enjoy fromherashes?

My real name is Buddy btw. Dutch born but registered as an independant photographer in Germany

PS: I'm with Regash on the musical front.
Prefer metal over other styles. I personally know a few musicians and 2 or 3 producers as well, and I think that what makes a good musician is the ability to pick up an instrument and play something that causes me to fall silent and listen in awe, without the support of a band or a studio full of gimmicks.
Not really relevant on this forum but I have played in Punk, Metal and Indie bands and I currently write and record ambient music. I don't feel the need to submit music for critique because we're not talking about the quality of my/clients music.

In regard to Regash's comments, I'm coming at it from the angle that the type of music he deems as "good" is no more technical or difficult to arrange/record/perform than the types he is dismissing. Talent is a matter of perspective. I have worked with terrible singers and had to tune their voices to make them sound more cohesive with the song their singing on to good effect. I've worked with epic singers who hit every note first take. I've worked with metal guitarists that take take after take trying to nail a solo (emphasis on trying) and yet I've had a session jazz guitarist (arguably more complex) nail their part in one take.

Yes, you can use computers to aide the recording or writing of a song but you still need the skill to compose/arrange and balance/master those recordings regardless of genre. Even more so given that when producing it's generally not your own work and you're trying to capture someone else's creative vision.

People being dismissive of certain genres of music because of their own personal preference is one of my biggest pet hates. It would be like me saying I like black and white photography and everything else is shit, which we both know isn't the case.

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Re: Would you buy a team in digital?

Post by the solitaire »

fromherashes wrote:
Talent is a matter of perspective. I have worked with terrible singers and had to tune their voices to make them sound more cohesive with the song their singing on to good effect. I've worked with epic singers who hit every note first take. I've worked with metal guitarists that take take after take trying to nail a solo (emphasis on trying) and yet I've had a session jazz guitarist (arguably more complex) nail their part in one take.

Yes, you can use computers to aide the recording or writing of a song but you still need the skill to compose/arrange and balance/master those recordings regardless of genre. Even more so given that when producing it's generally not your own work and you're trying to capture someone else's creative vision.
I think this is where it is at. I also think that this is what Regash was trying to maneuver to, aiming at the difference between the one-hit-wonders the music industry churns out every now and then and the musicians that work hard, mostly for decades, to earn the recognition they deserve. The former being modeled through art directors, producers and staff they will never work with again that make them sound great by any means nescessary, and the latter often paying money to record their first EP, working hard on stage to become good outside of a studio as well as in.

I also believe that this points out the headache some folks have with the way these digital teams are offered. Earning a reputation by hard work also means that you stand for your product. This also means that you are ready to say: "Yes, we can deal with production and logistics because we know this works" Followed by: "We do the logistics ourselves" or "but since our capacity is limited we had to outsource the logistics and production capacity to people who know their busines. We had communication with them and can GUARANTEE that when you buy our product, it will be delivered to you in a satisfactory fashion"

What Questron gave us is:

-An internet prooxy. We do not have the name of the person standing behind this merchandise
-An unfinished product that is of no use to tabletop gamers
-After a few posts we got the admission that the technology to turn this unfinished product into a real one is not yet mature enough to be at the disposal of the people that are the intended customers and
-...since this is a tabletop game, I bet that not all of the intended customers are of legal age to conclude an online purchase which makes keeping the above information from them pretty close to criminal intent.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictiona ... +liability

And even though we are not discussing bodily harm, we can certainly discuss the financial damage done by selling 3D renders to minors knowing that the printing of said renders is still not as readily available as to guarantee that anyone buying the product can actually print the team to a satisfactory quality for a reasonable price.

Of cours ethis only strongly depicts my personal opinion on the matter

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Re: Would you buy a team in digital?

Post by rolo »

well, kudos for bringing this thread back on topic at least. But I think the community here is getting really harsh on the OP. Accusing him of not being a "real" artist was bad enough, accusing him of being a criminal is just over the top.

3-D printing exists. There's nothing shady about selling 3d designs. It's funny that we've been comparing it to music, because that's actually a pretty good comparison. 30 years ago, if you wanted to buy some music, you had to go down to the record store and buy a cassette tape or a vinyl record. Later you could buy CDs. Nobody does that anymore - people buy music now instantly, from any number of services. What happens then? It's up to the customer - burn it to CD, put it on your phone, listen to it at work, whatever. Music is still music, the only thing that's changed is how it gets delivered. Heck, there are services that will put digital music on vinyl for you.

I believe that what Questron is looking to do is the future of tabletop modeling. Picture an online game store equivalent of iTunes or something. Pick what you want, download it, 3d print it out. There are all sorts of issues which will need to be worked out. How would the licensing work? Can I sell the figures that I print? Can I edit the design? But figuring that out is a process and based mostly on figuring out what sellers want to sell and what buyers want to buy. Which I can't help but notice is exactly what this thread was started for.

Interestingly, one other crossover between Music and Tabletop is the whining whenever anything changes. I remember when CDs first came out, nobody trusted them, everyone kept talking about how cassettes better (in fairness, early CD players were terrible, expensive, and prone to skipping). Kind of like 3d printers now. My parents have a bunch of vinyl records and hate cassettes. And today there are gamers who just don't like digital models. Or who just hate the idea of having different companies designing models and producing them. No problem, you're entitled to your opinion and you're free to buy or not buy what you like. But if you post, over and over again, how you dislike digital models, without adding anything constructive, you come across the same as some old guy complaining that his new car doesn't come with an 8-track player.

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Re: Would you buy a team in digital?

Post by Regash »

rolo wrote:Accusing him of not being a "real" artist was bad enough
I never said that.
I just said it's way easier to edit a 3D model when changes need to be made, that's all.
And I also said, I do like work done by hands more, may it be Metal over Pop or Greens over 3D sculpts.

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