Varnish!

A forum for football mini's talk.......painting, converting etc. etc. or showing off great accessories that make playing the game easier, cooler or more fun.

Moderator: TFF Mods

Post Reply
User avatar
JT-Y
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Posts: 1340
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:53 pm
Location: Chorley, where the police tazer blind people rather than look for the actual sword wielding lunatic
Contact:

Varnish!

Post by JT-Y »

This comes up a lot and I get asked it a lot. This is a repost of something I originally put on the PP forums, a full rundown of how I varnish models. I'm reposting it here to make it easier for me to find and link to.
It is afterall an important stage, and it's a somewhat distressing stage as nothing will ruin a well painted and finished mini that you are very proud of and happy with than a bad coat of varnish.

I'll say now that with plastic models such a convoluted process isn't absolutely necessary, but with metal it really does protect your stuff.

There are lots of varnishes available, but for protection of gaming mini's, certainly of metal ones, nothing beats a gloss varnish.
For the best look afterwards the gloss can be covered with a matte varnish to get rid of the shine.

Gloss:
I use Wickes stuff (over here in the UK); clear, interior, water based, UV resistant polyurethane gloss for woodwork. It's white in the tin, but dries totally clear.
Brilliant stuff. It can, and should, be thinned with water (just enough to break the surface tension, so that it flows better) so that it goes on smoothly (though this extends the drying time, I always allow 24-36 hours to be certain its cured), it doesn't yellow, and it offers the best protection.
A good gloss will remain ever so slightly flexible and is very chip resistant, and that's what protects the paint work from harm.

Keep a good quality, quite large brush just for your paint on varnishes. And use clean water. Paint on gloss will find any paint residue in the brush and transfer it straight to the model, so it is important to have a brush just for this (use this brush for the matte as well).

Other brands are as good, so any will do, it's the qualities you are after, so just to reiterate:
Clear, interior gloss for woodwork, water based, UV resistant, polyurethane based.

DO NOT use a yellow oil based gloss, it is only natural that it will go yellow over time. Modern, white water based glosses do not and offer just as much protection.
Besides, oil based can react badly with metalic paint or certain inks, causing a chemical bond rather than mechanical, which means the paint will run into the varnish.

note:
Mechanical bond: the varnish sits on top of the paint and adheres to the rough surface. This is good.
Chemical bond: the varnish reacts with the paint, softening it and sinking into it. This is bad. Aerosols do this due to the propelants, which is why if you touch a mini before it is dry you get fingerprints in the paint and nasty smears.
Some varnishes do this naturally due to the carrier, so ALWAYS TEST FIRST if you are using a brand or type you haven't used before.

This in mind, test your gloss on something first. Certain carriers can be too closly similar to that used in the paint, so you get a mild chemical bond.
GW Ardcoat is best avoided for this very reason, it uses an identical carrier to that used in GW paint. A very cheaply produced product and prone to problems as a result.

Paint on matte:
I use Vallejo paint on matte varnish after I've done the base (I do the bases after the gloss, as it's very easy to remove mistakes from the gloss with a wet brush).
A very dilute coat of this comes out very matte, litterally daub it on very thin, like an ink wash, and is ideal for catching all the undercuts that aerosol varnishes will miss. After it's dry, check and go over any shiny bits. It dries quite quickly, about 30 mins.
It also does a good job of sealing the paint on the base.

You can forego this step, but that'll tend to cause you to over apply the aerosol matte, which can cause more problems.

Aerosol Matte:
Final stage, after the base rims are painted, I spray the model lightly with Army Painter matte (I don't use Testors, never have, dunno why, so I can't honestly comment on how good it is, but I can comment very positively on the AP stuff, and their primers which are equally brilliant). This gives a uniform look, and adds just enough protection to the bases to keep the front/rear arc lines in place.

Note also that the aerosol won't be forming a chemical bond with the gloss or the paint beneath that, only with the paint on matte, so it won't be effecting colours, though it will still kill the shine in metalics.
One way around this is to reaply the final hilights on metalic areas, or to carefully repaint them with the gloss.
Same goes for gems and such like, a quick coat of gloss on these brings them to life after the matte varnish has killed their shine.

Nasty White Dusty Sheen:
Finally, I'll share a secret to getting the finish just right; aerosol matte dries in the air, between the nozzle and the model. That means you get a build up of crystals on the model.
These then crumble under your fingers and create a nasty, white gritty look.
To avoid that, get a 1" brush and after the varnish is dry, about 30 mins to 1 hour, dust the model with the brush. All the crystals come away, the model looks much cleaner and less dusty, and the crystals won't eff up the finished thing.
Just make sure it is a clean and dry brush. Personally I have one just for this job.

Over time the matte varnishes will wear away as it isn't very tough, so keep an eye out for shiny patches appearing and don't be afraid to lightly reapply the aerosol matte.

Preparation:
One final thing though, all of this means nothing if the models aren't prepared properly. The best way to protect metal mini's from damage is at the preparation stage.
When prepping, get all the edges smooth and even to remove any ridges or overly sharpe edges, don't be afraid to run fine grade sand paper around edges to create a bit of a rough surface for the primer to adhere to Primer uses a mechanical bond, so obviously a slightly rougher surface gives more grip), and clean them thoroughly afterwards, to remove swarf, grease and mould release agent.
Spray primer the models, then cover any undercuts by hand, then spray primer again. A few light coats is better than one heavy one, as the layers form a more solid base that is less likely to chip or rub away.


Sounds like a huge amount of agro, but it works, and has worked for a long time, since painters used to use nasty, yellow oil based glosses wich turn brown in the sunlight, before the days of modern white water polyurethane glosses and UV protection (though if you smoke, nothing will stop your models turning yellow).
There are plenty of modern, time saving quick options to use instead, but I personally have no qualms about having no sympathy for anyone when their quick and lazy options don't do a very good job.
Varnish and prep is important, so it deserves the time to be done right.
Besides, WM armies are often small, so the time is well spent.

Hope that helps.

Reason: ''

"It´s better to enlarge the game than to restrict the players." -- Erick Wujcik
User avatar
JT-Y
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Posts: 1340
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:53 pm
Location: Chorley, where the police tazer blind people rather than look for the actual sword wielding lunatic
Contact:

Re: Varnish!

Post by JT-Y »

Since I originally wrote this Army Painter have improved their matte aerosol varnish and released a satin aerosol.

If you use the matte, stand it in a sink of very warm water before you start shaking it to use. This warms up all the chemicals to a consistent temperature so they mix better.

I have yet to try the satin varnish but my gut feeling is that it will be better. The original GW Purity Seal, the really good stuff, was satin. With satin aerosols you have less chance of it ballsing up, and it gives a very nice finish.

GW have changed their Purity Seal again since I wrote this.
It remains utter and complete junk. Do not even think about using it, you might just as well layer your models in glue and dunk them in talcum powder. It will give the exact same finish.

Reason: ''

"It´s better to enlarge the game than to restrict the players." -- Erick Wujcik
User avatar
Shteve0
Legend
Legend
Posts: 2479
Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 10:15 am
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Varnish!

Post by Shteve0 »

JT-Y wrote:you might just as well layer your models in glue and dunk them in talcum powder. It will give the exact same finish.
This is what I do. Great money saving tip

Reason: ''
League and tournament hosting, blogging and individual forums - all totally free. For the most immersive tabletop sports community experience around, check out theendzone.co
User avatar
frogboy
Legend
Legend
Posts: 2083
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:20 pm
Location: South Wales

Re: Varnish!

Post by frogboy »

Oh going to wickes tomorrow to pick up some tiles, will have a look out for that varnish although I'm not a massive fan of Gloss, I use Army Painter Spray and Vellegio paint on too, great stuff.

Thinking about it I bought a tub of Windsor & Newton Valeria Acrylic Medium Matt Varnish from The Range (I love this shop) a while ago and still not tried it out, anyone used it before?

If it works then it works out a lot cheaper than anything else. Need to test it and see...
IMG_20161004_201701.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Reason: ''
I'm a British Freebooter, will play for any team including Undead (I have my own Apothecary). Good rates.
User avatar
frogboy
Legend
Legend
Posts: 2083
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:20 pm
Location: South Wales

Re: Varnish!

Post by frogboy »

There's no ingredients :(
IMG_20161004_202018.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Reason: ''
I'm a British Freebooter, will play for any team including Undead (I have my own Apothecary). Good rates.
User avatar
rolo
Super Star
Super Star
Posts: 1188
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 9:38 am
Location: Paradise Stadium, where the pitch is green and the cheerleaders are pretty.

Re: Varnish!

Post by rolo »

JT-Y wrote:GW have changed their Purity Seal again since I wrote this.
It remains utter and complete junk. Do not even think about using it, you might just as well layer your models in glue and dunk them in talcum powder. It will give the exact same finish.
I can confirm the awfulness of GW's new Purity Seal, and the quality of Army Painter Satin Varnish (It's labelled "Aegis Suit" on the can).

The Aegis Suit gives what I consider to be the perfect amount of shine. It's all I use and gives great protection.

Every once in a while, I try out the Purity seal, because I am an idiot and start wondering if it's really that bad, maybe it was just too humid when I used it, maybe I can just use it as a matt spray to take off the shine a bit ... nope. It really is that bad. I need to stop doing that.

Reason: ''
"It's 2+ and I have a reroll. Chill out. I've got this!"
Image
User avatar
frogboy
Legend
Legend
Posts: 2083
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:20 pm
Location: South Wales

Re: Varnish!

Post by frogboy »

JT-Y, I went to Wickes this morning. Found the gloss stuff. Also seen same wickes brand Matt Varnish too. Any experience with that?

10 quid for the gloss seems good value for the size of tin you get too better than the stuff I posted above, I think it was 12 for the Matt.

Think they got Satin too, but due to there being no customer toliet in the building I couldn't stick around to long to read about what that was all about.

Reason: ''
I'm a British Freebooter, will play for any team including Undead (I have my own Apothecary). Good rates.
User avatar
JT-Y
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Posts: 1340
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:53 pm
Location: Chorley, where the police tazer blind people rather than look for the actual sword wielding lunatic
Contact:

Re: Varnish!

Post by JT-Y »

Matte varnish just doesn't offer the same protection, and it won't be matte enough to dull shine.

Experimentation is good, but I've already done a lot and ruined a lot of models along the way!

Reason: ''

"It´s better to enlarge the game than to restrict the players." -- Erick Wujcik
User avatar
frogboy
Legend
Legend
Posts: 2083
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:20 pm
Location: South Wales

Re: Varnish!

Post by frogboy »

Sweet dude, thanks for the advise. I'll stick with the AP stuff etc for now then and maybe give this W&N a whirl as an experiment. BTW I normally dip my Miniatures before varnish anyway and find that protects them (obviously as dip is the same thing just with a brown stain) then spray over with the Matt stuff and paint on Matt. But then you need to seriously reduce your painting skill to use dip lol :wink:

Thanks for your answer buddy.

Reason: ''
I'm a British Freebooter, will play for any team including Undead (I have my own Apothecary). Good rates.
Steam Ball
Super Star
Super Star
Posts: 977
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 6:21 pm

Re: Varnish!

Post by Steam Ball »

JT-Y wrote:Matte varnish just doesn't offer the same protection
Why? I keep on hearing that, but the only convincing explanations are the other kind, that both protect the same and issues are cosmetic.

Reason: ''
User avatar
JT-Y
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Posts: 1340
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:53 pm
Location: Chorley, where the police tazer blind people rather than look for the actual sword wielding lunatic
Contact:

Re: Varnish!

Post by JT-Y »

It just is.

Well, it depends on the type.
Someone mentioned above that Wickes do a clear interior matte varnish. This type might offer almost as much protection as the gloss, but the amount will be reduced by the matting agent which is normally a powder and reduces the solidity of the varnish when cured.
Proper gloss gives a durable, protective coat which remains slightly flexible. When you add a matting agent into that it is less durable.
And such varnishes aren't really very matte when you try them out on a small model being as they are designed to give a flat-ish look on woodwork.

If we're talking about model varnishes then we are just talking about something used for effect because be they gloss, satin or matte they offer bugger all protection compared to a proper varnish.

I've read a lot about varnish over the years, but I've read it from people who own chipped models and will tell you that there is nothing you can do to stop it.
I disagree. I once dropped a heavy metal tape measure on on metal Ogrun whilst playing WM&H, which fired it across the room onto a wooden floor, and it didn't take any damage. Recently my whole Helf team went all over the place onto a tiled floor when the pitch got knocked flying, the head came off one but none of them suffered any damage to the paint.
Those are just two instances, but I've had loads.

Reason: ''

"It´s better to enlarge the game than to restrict the players." -- Erick Wujcik
Steam Ball
Super Star
Super Star
Posts: 977
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 6:21 pm

Re: Varnish!

Post by Steam Ball »

JT-Y wrote:Proper gloss gives a durable, protective coat which remains slightly flexible. When you add a matting agent into that it is less durable.
Why can't additives work as fibers do in fiber glass or other composites?
And such varnishes aren't really very matte when you try them out on a small model being as they are designed to give a flat-ish look on woodwork.
If we're talking about model varnishes then we are just talking about something used for effect because be they gloss, satin or matte they offer bugger all protection compared to a proper varnish.
I tend to go with artist or car types (normally not water based, or at least smelly), they seem tough so far. I think resistance is more about base chemistry/number of coats/application method than gloss/matte.

Reason: ''
horekim
Super Star
Super Star
Posts: 879
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 2:55 pm
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Contact:

Re: Varnish!

Post by horekim »

Thanks for sharing. I was never satisfied with the Vallejo matt varnish, but I guess I'll give it another go

Reason: ''
Lead Under The Bed - My painting blog
Post Reply