Timing after failed Blood Lust roll

Meradanis · Post by **Meradanis** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 2:49 am

Here's the situation that occured in our league last night: A Vampire declares a hand-off, and rolls a '1' on his Blood Lust roll. No reroll left, so he has to take a Move Action instead.
Now he moves to where the ball lies, and fails his pick-up roll. It's a turnover for sure, and since he didn't suck any Thrall, he has to leave the pitch.

Question is: When ? Immediately after the pick-up roll failed, or do you still do the bounce and possible catch rolls (with the Vampire still on pitch) ? In our game, it made the difference between a successfull catch or another scatter, because the ball initially bounced into the hands of an opposing player. We couldn't find any specific answer in the rulebook.

Marlow · Post by **Marlow** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:19 am

I belive the Vamp is removed at the end of the Action, and I do not think the action ends until the ball stops bouncing.

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:38 am

Marlow wrote:I belive the Vamp is removed at the end of the Action, and I do not think the action ends until the ball stops bouncing.

Agreed.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:42 am

Darkson wrote:
Marlow wrote:I belive the Vamp is removed at the end of the Action, and I do not think the action ends until the ball stops bouncing.
Agreed.

Ditto. The vamp leaves the pitch once everything is at rest i.e. all armour/injury rolls done and the ball has been caught or stopped on the floor.

Meradanis · Post by **Meradanis** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:44 pm

Any evidence for this ?

The Blood Lust description simply states that the Vamp has to leave the pitch if he is not able to bite a Thrall. The moment he fails the pick-up, it's clear that he can't bite the Thrall. So you could argue that he has to leave the pitch instantly.

Marlow · Post by **Marlow** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:10 pm

Meradanis wrote:Any evidence for this ?

None. You can read it either way. A failed pick up roll causes the ball to bounce, the question is does it bounce before the action ends, or after?

I think if you read the rules they impley he is removed before it bounces.
Bloodlust says "Vampire is not able to attack a Thrall (for any reason), then he is removed from the pitch and placed in his team's Reserves box, and his team suffers a turnover.

Combined with Page 7 Turnovers saying "A coach that suffers a turnover is not allowed to take any further actions that turn, and any action being taken ends immediately even if it was only partially completed. Make armour and injury rolls for players that were knocked down, and if the ball was dropped then roll to see where it bounces too normally."

coma · Post by **coma** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:10 pm

Marlow: So you are saying that the ball bounces between yours and your opponents turns? That sounds good to me.

Im thinking about playing vampires next season (a bit tired of humans and looking for something more "special") so this question could come up.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:42 am

coma wrote:Marlow: So you are saying that the ball bounces between yours and your opponents turns? That sounds good to me.

I disagree .. the text of turnover clearly states that you need to resolve the ball bouncing and armour rolls as part of wrapping up the turn. Immediately simply means that no new items can be done this turn (like having other Pass Block players move (as was discussed in another thread).

Galak

Marlow · Post by **Marlow** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:13 am

coma wrote:Marlow: So you are saying that the ball bounces between yours and your opponents turns? That sounds good to me.

No I am saying it bounces during the 'end of turn' step. It is like having a stack of plates. You have to to take each of the plates off the stack to get the End Turn at the bottom.

Now depending on if you use a FIFO or LIFO principle depends if the Vampire is removed before or after the ball bounces!

The failed pick up roll causes two events to happen
* Move Action to End
* Ball to Bounce

The move action ending causes another event
*Vampire mistforms back to the reserve box to get some blood.

You now have a stack of three events
* Move Action to End
* Ball to Bounce
*Vampire mistforms back to the reserve box to get some blood.

If you start from the top, the ball bounces before the Vampire is removed.
If you start from the bottom, Vamp is gone when ball bounces.

Taking this one step further, can a Vamp use Hypnotic Gaze on an opposing player before he is removed for failing the Bloodlust roll? They are both effects that happen at the end of the move action.

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:16 am

I say the ball bounces and comes to rest first.

If the "action" does not have to resolve completely, then I'd try to argue that a bloodlusting vampire who fails a dodge roll is removed before he hits the ground and suffers his armor roll.

Marlow · Post by **Marlow** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:59 am

plasmoid wrote:If the "action" does not have to resolve completely, then I'd try to argue that a bloodlusting vampire who fails a dodge roll is removed before he hits the ground and suffers his armor roll.

Good point!

The same applies if you have a 'Both Down' Block with the ball carrier. If you do not resolve the Armour rolls first the ball could bounce off a player who is not on the pitch any longer.

Overall I think if you have two or more events happening simultaneously the active player should made the decision about what order to resolve them, provided Armour/Injury rolls are made for all players knocked down.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:10 am

plasmoid wrote:I say the ball bounces and comes to rest first.

If the "action" does not have to resolve completely, then I'd try to argue that a bloodlusting vampire who fails a dodge roll is removed before he hits the ground and suffers his armor roll.

Which is sort of backed up by the way catches work (although not explictly)- you only turnover when failing to catch the ball once the ball has come to rest as the turnover can only occur once there is no chance of one of your players catching it.

Also you HAVE to roll Av/Inj before any ball scatters because the location of the body may affect the final position of the ball so the sequence is

1) Roll Av/Inj
2) Scatter ball
3) Turnover

Vamps leave the pitch in #3

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:24 am

Marlow wrote:Taking this one step further, can a Vamp use Hypnotic Gaze on an opposing player before he is removed for failing the Bloodlust roll? They are both effects that happen at the end of the move action.

Yes he can. This is well documented and has been answered on TBB before.

Using HGaze is done at the end of the Move action but is still part of the Move Action. The leaving the pitch is what happens after the Move action is completely resolved if you didn't bite a Thrall.

Galak

petitgars · Post by **petitgars** » Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:06 am

What occurs if a vampire failed both blood lust and pick up in a position where he can bite a thrall? Does he must be out, because he can't bite before the end of action (turnover), or can he bite the thrall after the turnover?

Shteve0 · Post by **Shteve0** » Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:26 am

petitgars wrote:What occurs if a vampire failed both blood lust and pick up in a position where he can bite a thrall? Does he must be out, because he can't bite before the end of action (turnover), or can he bite the thrall after the turnover?

My guess is that the actual precedes the if - so the failure to collect the ball resolves and causes the turnover, and then the process checks to see if the vampire has bitten before turnover (no) and he's straight off.

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