Perfect Defence : can we use players who were on the bench ?

[Cracol]

I've only ever reorganised players on the pitch. I never even thought of substituting during a perfect defence until I saw this thread. Although I can see the arguement for allowing substitutes I'd still never do it because there's something about it that just doesn't seem right.

I agree that a simple change to the wording on the KO table would rectify this relatively easily if you definately can't make subs. Something like

Perfect Defence: The kicking team’s coach may reorganize his players on the pitch into another legal defence. The receiving team must remain in the set-up chosen by their coach.

[Smeborg]

Cracol - that's fine, except I suggest there still needs to be some wording somewhere to cover the Kick skill anomaly (I suggest it would be less cluttering to put it under the Kick skill description).

Hope this helps.

[GalakStarscraper]

Cracol - that's fine, except I suggest there still needs to be some wording somewhere to cover the Kick skill anomaly (I suggest it would be less cluttering to put it under the Kick skill description).

To me its not an anomaly.

The kick is already done when Perfect Defense is rolled and at that point the Kicker move. So there are no problems.

Galak

[Smeborg]

Fine, Galak, if that's the official ruling. But the clarification needs to be made somewhere. That was my point.

All the best.

[Joe Mountainia]

But let me ask you this Ian ... if I had a Secret Weapon on the pitch and use Perfect Defense to swap him to reserves ... does he still get ejected.

I'd say as it stands now changing in and out players from the dugout is legal, but dubious. I'd be all in favor of it though for "dirty tricks" style teams.

As for the secret weapon, I think played comes down to if they were eligible to change/be involved with anything. If they're on and off before they exert tackle zones, get tossed in the mix for a thrown rock, wandering fireball, etc. they weren't playing.

[daloonieshaman]

The Defense sets up fist
you have no Idea what the offense will bring to the table

Perfect Defense allows you to counter his offense with the resources you have (that is why it is called PERFECT defense)
So maybe a fast player you were resting because he just got enough spps to skill up is cooling it. He might become very useful on the sides

It also counters the Advantage that the Offense gets by setting up second
hmm I want this guy here and I need this putz off the bench to hold the line here ....

The Drive begins when the offense starts his turn

Quick snap:
"The offence start their drive a fraction before the defense is ready"

pg 7 of the rule book
A. Receiving Team's Turn
B. Kicking Team's Turn
Repeat A and B, one after the other, until the end of the drive.
NOTE: A drive is defined as playing until a touchdown is scored
or the half ends

A. does not happen until he activates his turn marker (other than Quick Snap)

so Replacing players at will during during a Perfect Defense is totally within the realms of the rulebook.

2 things need to happen:
Timing of Drive needs to be clarified
Perfect Defense needs to be tweaked (NOT CHANGED) to be clearer as to what you can do
If you can reset your D (all models come into play)
or
Shuffle players on Field

easy 5-6 word tweak

[bbdave522]

SUBSTITUTES
You may not substitute fit players for injured players or players
that have been sent off while a drive is in progress. The only time
that you may add reserves is when you are setting up after a
touchdown has been scored, or when setting up after half time or
for overtime.

Perfect Defence: The kicking team’s coach may
reorganize his players – in other words he can set
them up again into another legal defence. The
receiving team must remain in the set-up chosen by
their coach.

So I'd say the rules are actually pretty clear. You can only change players on the pitch when setting up, and perfect defence is setting up again. So you can swap players in and out quite happily - including a kicker who may already have used his skill.

I think you missed some key context here. the emphasis in the Substitutes rule is not on "when you are setting up" but rather

SUBSTITUTES
You may not substitute fit players for injured players or players
that have been sent off while a drive is in progress. The only time
that you may add reserves is when you are setting up after a
touchdown has been scored, or when setting up after half time or
for overtime.

You are not setting up after a touchdown, after half-time, or for overtime. You are setting up after a roll on the kick off table. The rules are clear that there are only three times when you can make a substitution. After rolling "Perfect Defense" on the kick-off table is not one of them. The rules are decisive, although a less time-consuming clarification in LRB 6 would be nice.

[Smeborg]

I am inclined to agree with bbdave532's interpretation, which seems to fit both the letter and spirit of the rules. Good point.

All the best.

[Fat_Emrys]

I have to disagree with bbdave522 and Smeborg. For me, the Substitutes section is listing when you add players to get back up to 11

SUBSTITUTES
You may not substitute fit players for injured players or players
that have been sent off while a drive is in progress. The only time
that you may add reserves is when you are setting up after a
touchdown has been scored, or when setting up after half time or
for overtime.

and that's not what's being debated here.

As Perfect Defence specifically allows you to set up again then you should be able to choose from any of your fit players - otherwise there's no need for the

– in other words he can set them up again

in the Perfect Defense wording. If you're restricted to those initially put on the pitch, surely it'd say

Perfect Defence: The kicking team’s coach may
reorganize his players into another legal defence. The
receiving team must remain in the set-up chosen by
their coach.

[Edit: Corrected bbdave522's name]

[Grumbledook]

reorganise his players not bring on substitutes

I've never seen anyone anywhere ever since 3rd edition came out in 1994 actually try to swap players from the dugout

and I've played in a lot of countries

I think you are in a minority here if you believe you can bring on subs

[bbdave522]

Emrys, actually that is what is being debated here. No matter how you look at it, you are adding players from reserves to the field. You are taking players from the field and adding players from reserves. So the fact remains that you cannot add reserves after a "Perfect Defense" result. The "in other words he can set them up again" is simply clarification. It clarifies exactly what you are allowed to do; set up your defense again. The "Perfect Defense" rules say nothing to suggest that you cannot swap players out from reserves. The place that it says that you cannot is in the Substitutes rule. You cannot claim to go by the claim that the "spirit" of the Substitutes rule is that it only applies to bringing your numbers to 11 while at the same time claiming that the letter of the "Perfect Defense" rule allows you to substitute.

Also it's BBdave522 (not 532) but no problem

[Electric Wizard]

I used the search function for the exact same problem (Can you swap players from the bench during Perfect Defence?) but didn't find a clear answer.

This thread seems to be the most promising. Though it's necromancy...

Is there a definitive answer yet?