Perfect Defence : can we use players who were on the bench ?

Papa Sebco · Post by **Papa Sebco** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:12 pm

"Perfect Defence: The kicking team’s coach may
reorganize his players – in other words he can set
them up again into another legal defence. The
receiving team must remain in the set-up chosen by
their coach."

From years, in our league and in tournaments, I've always setted up again the 11 players I had setted up before the kick-off event. But, during a game, having rolled a Perfect Defence, a coach took a player on the bench, retiring another player who was on the field and so setted up again with 11 players, but not the 11 same eleven players than before the rolled kick-off event. Is it forbidden by the rules or not ? I think I should understand perfectly english to be sure of the answer as, reading Perfect Defence text above again and again, I'm not so sure it is forbidden...

In other words, do "his players" refer to his 11 setted up players or to all his available players ?

El Hombre · Post by **El Hombre** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:15 pm

IMHO you can use all players available... at least that's the way we've always played it.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:22 pm

wow

never seen anyone do that

just rearrange the players you originally set up on the field

Perfect Defence: The kicking team’s coach may
reorganize his players – in other words he can set
them up again into another legal defence. The
receiving team must remain in the set-up chosen by
their coach.

guess it is how you understand reorganize his players

for me that is the ones that are on the pitch and as I've said, despite the many quaint rules interpretations i've seen, someone substituting players isn't one of them

olsen667 · Post by **olsen667** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:36 pm

Grumbledook wrote: just rearrange the players you originally set up on the field

That is definitely the right one.

Papa Sebco · Post by **Papa Sebco** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:14 pm

To be clear, I also think so. That's why I always played like that. My question isn't "do you think it is the right understanding ?" but "is it clearly forbidden in the rules to take a player on the bench on a Perfect defence ?". Cause, for me, when I tranlate the rule in french, this isn't clearly forbidden, but maybe in english a word or another, maybe "REORGANIZE" maybe "set up AGAIN", I don't know, clearly mean it's forbidden..

Digger Goreman · Post by **Digger Goreman** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:33 pm

Interesting... though always playing it as "players on the field", I could see it going the other way....

BBRC?

johnnyb79 · Post by **johnnyb79** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:36 pm

always played it that you have to set up with whats on the pitch also, nice point though, it doesnt say you cant use players not initially on for that drive!

Glowworm · Post by **Glowworm** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 7:01 pm

Ive always played it as the players on the pitch, however it does seem to suggest that you could replace players with bench warmers... I dont think Id have a problem if my opponent wanted to "replace" a player with one off field.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 9:44 pm

Its an interesting question, and one that I think comes up very rarely because you normally have your 11 best defenders on the field already.

However I'd say yes - you can swap players from the dugout.

olsen667 · Post by **olsen667** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 2:28 pm

wow

, that makes perfect defense an even better result.......

at least, when you're not receiving........

dwarfrunner · Post by **dwarfrunner** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:22 pm

I thought there was a rule in LRB that said once the drive started, no new players from the dugout are allowed to be placed on the field until after the end of the drive. And since the drive started when the kick-off was rolled, I would say the players in the dugout are not available for perfect defence.

Dwarfpete · Post by **Dwarfpete** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:52 pm

dwarfrunner wrote:I thought there was a rule in LRB that said once the drive started, no new players from the dugout are allowed to be placed on the field until after the end of the drive. And since the drive started when the kick-off was rolled, I would say the players in the dugout are not available for perfect defence.

Yes, I believe You mean the section about substitutes.
"You may not substitute fit players for injured players or players that have been sent off while a drive is in progress. The only time that you may add reserves is when you are setting up after a touchdown has been scored, or when setting up after half time or for overtime."
IMO the drive starts with the end of the kick-off, when all results of the kick-off-table are done and the ball comes to rest. So I would agree in a complete change of personal.

Smeborg · Post by **Smeborg** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:50 pm

This is a good question, since, although rare, it can happen in practice.

I agree with Dwarfpete and others, that the wording of the Substitutes section (p.11 in LRB6 draft) appears decisive in this instance. Since you cannot add reserves while a drive is in progress (and surely the drive is in progress if you have got as far as setting up, scattering the ball, and rolling on the kick-off table?) then I would rule that you cannot substitute reserves for fit players at this point.

However, as this is a "set-up" (page 6 - where the wording is very general and far from legalistic) there is scope to argue the other way.

Wishlist/dream suggestion: If the rules handbook had a "definition of terms" (e.g. "drive", "turn" etc.) then this kind of query might be resolved more easily, or at least more quickly. The query also straddles the different worlds of the generally worded introductory section and the more legally tight Extra Rules.

The matter could be resolved by including some specific wording in the Perfect Defence section of the kick-off table. Over to you, Ian?

Hope this helps.

stashman · Post by **stashman** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:06 pm

I can only see one good use of substitute from the reservs since you probably have all your 11 best player at the pitch.

A lineman with kick skill and nothing more. Use for better kick.

Perfect Defence - switch him with a player that has either block, wrestle or what ever.

No other reason to choose from reservs.

Smeborg · Post by **Smeborg** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:01 am

Thanks, stashman, I believe you may have inadvertently made a good point.

If you allow substitutions from reserves, then you could take away your Kicker after the Kick skill has been used!

This little absurdity tends, I think, to prove that substitutions from reserves should not be allowed.

Hope this helps.