Perfect Defence : can we use players who were on the bench ?

frogbear · Post by **frogbear** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:00 am

thank you

Koigokoro · Post by **Koigokoro** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:34 am

stashman wrote:I can only see one good use of substitute from the reservs since you probably have all your 11 best player at the pitch.

A lineman with kick skill and nothing more. Use for better kick.

Perfect Defence - switch him with a player that has either block, wrestle or what ever.

No other reason to choose from reservs.

The ball scatters after kick-off has been resolved so Kick skill has not yet been used on the scatter roll.

Edit:

I had read only the first page after posting this.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:34 am

SUBSTITUTES
You may not substitute fit players for injured players or players
that have been sent off while a drive is in progress. The only time
that you may add reserves is when you are setting up after a
touchdown has been scored, or when setting up after half time or
for overtime.

Perfect Defence: The kicking team’s coach may
reorganize his players – in other words he can set
them up again into another legal defence. The
receiving team must remain in the set-up chosen by
their coach.

So I'd say the rules are actually pretty clear. You can only change players on the pitch when setting up, and perfect defence is setting up again. So you can swap players in and out quite happily - including a kicker who may already have used his skill.

olsen667 · Post by **olsen667** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:20 pm

ianwilliams wrote:So I'd say the rules are actually pretty clear. You can only change players on the pitch when setting up, and perfect defence is setting up again. So you can swap players in and out quite happily - including a kicker who may already have used his skill.

But is this really the way, perfect defense was supposed to be or is it just some kind of loophole?
I always thought of perfect defense as a kind of defensive "audible", to speak in an american football way, in which the players ON the pitch just reorganize their formation according to the offensive formation, always played it like that in BloodBowl and i think/hope, this also was the way perfect defense was intended.....so some rewording of perfect defense seems unavoidable.........

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:54 pm

We'll put this on the list to clarify for LRB 6.0 because I still disagree with Ian's take on the rules. I see where he is getting it from.

But let me ask you this Ian ... if I had a Secret Weapon on the pitch and use Perfect Defense to swap him to reserves ... does he still get ejected.

If you say yes ... then I stand by my belief that the drive has started and you cannot sub from the bench. If you say no ... then the rules are completely confusing and need clarified.

In other words ... they need clarified on this point.

Galak

Dark_Soul · Post by **Dark_Soul** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:41 pm

GalakStarscraper wrote:But let me ask you this Ian ... if I had a Secret Weapon on the pitch and use Perfect Defense to swap him to reserves ... does he still get ejected.

If you say yes ... then I stand by my belief that the drive has started and you cannot sub from the bench. If you say no ... then the rules are completely confusing and need clarified.

In other words ... they need clarified on this point.

Galak

I don't know about ian, but we alays played it the drive didn't start until a player had started their turn (either the receiving coach or the blitzing one).

stashman · Post by **stashman** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:59 pm

GalakStarscraper wrote:
But let me ask you this Ian ... if I had a Secret Weapon on the pitch and use Perfect Defense to swap him to reserves ... does he still get ejected.

Galak

Why do this in the first place? Well maybe you realized that it was the last drive in first half and you wan't your sw on the bench instead, but that would be noob failure

I'll say if it is that you can swap with bench, he don't get ejected becuse he is'nt on the pitch when drive ends.

Maybe this needs a clarification when sw are in the knock-out dug, is there anything that says they have to leave the game?

Dark_Soul · Post by **Dark_Soul** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:03 pm

stashman wrote:I'll say if it is that you can swap with bench, he don't get ejected becuse he is'nt on the pitch when drive ends.

Using that logic, neither does a SW that got Ko'd or crowdsurfed during a drive.

Dwarfpete · Post by **Dwarfpete** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:00 pm

After reading all entries and my discussion last night with other players i am still confused about it. I think a clarification when a drive (realy) starts - as Galak proposes - is helpfull. Thanks.

frogbear · Post by **frogbear** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:52 pm

Ian

Your post that states they can set 'them' up again is only relevant to them that are set up.

I believe that the quote used is being taken out of context using the set up rules after dice have been rolled. Once the set up is completed and the ball is placed, that is what you are stuck with. Roll the dice for scatter and the kick off and the game begins.

That's my take...

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:11 pm

To Galaks question,
I'd think the SW would not get sent off.
I guess in my mind the drive starts when the turn marker gets moved.

Then again - if that were so, a SW KOd by throw a rock would not get sent off...
The mind reels

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:51 am

frogbear wrote:Ian

...I believe that the quote used is being taken out of context ...

But he quoted the context too...

frogbear · Post by **frogbear** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:11 am

Jural wrote:But he quoted the context too...

But the them do not exist if they are not on the pitch. The rule does not state adding reserves after a kick off result of perfect defence. It is after a touchdown or half ends.

As the team has been set up already, the them being referred to are the 11 or less players on the pitch. The rule then clearly states "The kicking team’s coach may reorganize his players" and then clarifies "he can set them up again". The reorganization is for players on the pitch, not off it. Until there is an official ruling stating otherwise, I fail to see how someone could bring a player on from the bench without the substitutes rule stating "...or after a perfect defence is rolled on the kick off table".

Post by **Old Man Draco** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:34 am

Them refers to his players. His players are the players of a coach. I don't see anywhere that the players meant by "his players" are only the players on the pitch.

I'd never substitue, but I can't see any reason the way it is written now in the rules that you cannot. So unless a rule will state it is not allowed, I'd allow my opponent to if he wanted.

hoomin_erra · Post by **hoomin_erra** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:46 am

I have to agree with methuzela.

I've never really seen it this way before, but reading the rules, i'd say that using players from the bench is fine. The rules state you can't swap injured players for fit players. Plus, seeing as the final catter hasn't yet happened, the recieving coach's turn hasn't yet started, so neither has the drive.