Claw - any armour roll of 8 or more

[cyagen]

I had a game against a Necro team with a Claw/Dautless Were. The guy is an effective BG CAS machine. However, he was a factor on ONE drive out of 4. My simple Block/MB Blitzer was WAY more effective (2 CAS, 1 TD, 1 Hand off for a TD)

I won 3-1 with Underworld and I gladly marked him with a Gobo, fouled him with a Gobo...

I played 3ed with +4/+2 and 10+ dead.

C/MB/PO is not broken, it works just fine, just like Blodge, Wrackle, Wrodge, Sneaky Player, etc...

You just need to find a way to deal with it.

By the way no one should take into consideration the Cyanide game stats. This is not BB TT or PBEM and it has rampant cheating going on like all online games.

[funnyfingers]

You would have to change the way the apoth works if you changed it back to a 12 injury roll being dead. I really like how the apoth works now. Don't you just love when your prized Snow Troll with Claw, Mighty Blow, Guard, Piling on rerolls -ST for DEAD? (I chose death by the way).

Edit: I am not being facetious either. I really do like how the apoth works.

[funnyfingers]

cyagen - If you are combining all those other skill combos into single words, you need something for C/MB/PO. Maybe Mighty Claw On or Piling Clablow...

[Wylder]

Sneaky Player, etc...

I really feel you missed an opportunity by not going with "Dirty Git" here

[cyagen]

Indeed, missed Dirty Git. Put it on being a non-native speaking.

But I think that PClow could have potential

[Ravenal]

... haven't left this yet, still convinced there is something missing to make claw balanced...

anyway, a small side note. Why doesn't claw give minuses to ball handling? Claws are far less dexterous than hands are... At least the claws depicted on the old skaven stormvermin model

[daloonieshaman]

These are new modern claws like woverene retract when not in use

[Ravenal]

These are new modern claws like woverene retract when not in use

/warning, this post might contain lack of content!

funny...

[Ullis]

I think this really come down to matter of preference, since even in the Cyanide game Chaos doesn't seem to be overpowered (I think Dwarves are the team with the best win ratio right now).

Since I'm writing of preferences, here's my opinion: Only working on AV9 or AV9 would make the skill too weak, and the change would hit Norse and Necromantic teams as well. The change would take away the clear advantage Chaos and Nurgle teams have over other bashers. The other basher teams (namely Orcs, Dwarves and Chaos Dwarves) can have more Guard and Mighty Blow since they have positionals starting with Block and ball handling skills (well, not CD's). Underworld would also suffer badly from a nerf on Claw.

Dead players seem to be a big thing in the Cyanide game since winning the game doesn't seem to be so important. They need something more to encourage playing for the win, and not looking at matches solely as an opportunity to build the team in some way.

[Ravenal]

I think this really come down to matter of preference, since even in the Cyanide game Chaos doesn't seem to be overpowered (I think Dwarves are the team with the best win ratio right now).

Best win ratio at what TV? The comparison doesn't work until chaos catches up to the other bashing teams in guard to players ratio... which is at later TV. Up until that point (in the cyanide version) first dwarfs rule the bashing game, then orcs and finally chaos. Orcs and dwarfs, as well as chaos, are very capable up to that point in taking out (killing) agile teams meaning that under normal circumstances dodgy teams won't make it to that TV in any competitive manner (losing to the 2-1 grind more often than not)...

Since I'm writing of preferences, here's my opinion: Only working on AV9 or AV9 would make the skill too weak, and the change would hit Norse and Necromantic teams as well. The change would take away the clear advantage Chaos and Nurgle teams have over other bashers. The other basher teams (namely Orcs, Dwarves and Chaos Dwarves) can have more Guard and Mighty Blow since they have positionals starting with Block and ball handling skills (well, not CD's). Underworld would also suffer badly from a nerf on Claw.

It will still be very useful to have against high AV opponents... it just means that fewer players will have it on the team.

controlling the blood in the game to high AV players should not be done exclusively through one limited access skill...

Dead players seem to be a big thing in the Cyanide game since winning the game doesn't seem to be so important. They need something more to encourage playing for the win, and not looking at matches solely as an opportunity to build the team in some way.

which is interesting in itself ... how you play games differently on TT and over the internet

[Darkson]

Up until that point (in the cyanide version) first dwarfs rule the bashing game, then orcs and finally chaos.

Taking that point, if Claw means Chaos rule at high-TV (which using the FULL rules [i.e all the races, skills correctly, etc.] I've yet to see any evidence of), the obviously Dwarfs need to have some sort of nerf at low-TV, and Orcs need to have some sort of nerf at mid-TV.

When (IF!!!) Cyanide complete the game 100%, and once 1000s of games have been played with all races (and not just new race A vs old race B who's at twice the TV), and once the game promotes "proper" league play out of the box (i.e. makes it more important to win rather than just kill the opponent) - if it's still showing that Chaos rule the roost, then I will join your crusade.
Until then, I'll stick with the "the Cyanide game isn't complete, and provides flawed data" camp.

[plasmoid]

IMO, it's the skewed set of 8 teams.

If the 8 teams had been gobbos, halflings, amazons, snotlings, lizardmen, humans, wood elfs and underworld, then I'm pretty sure that tackle would appear broken. Claw not so much.

Also, if coaches play like causing casualties is the purpose of the game, then something is wrong with the format.
I was a tournament organizer for quite a few years, and every year some bash coach would suggest a bonus for causing casualties. My reply was always: Nope - good bashy coaches use the casualties to win. Poor bashy coaches just bash.

Cheers
Martin

[Ravenal]

if coaches play like causing casualties is the purpose of the game, then something is wrong with the format

this is the heart of it yes ... the point here being that they can and in open/MM format this is where it can break. So trying to put it into terms that work for private leagues of any TV and open/MM format... see a bit later.

When (IF!!!) Cyanide complete the game 100%, and once 1000s of games have been played with all races

... yes, this is all theory still.

So, the theory is that you have three kinds of teams:
- Bashy
- Dodgy (squishy)
- Mix

Ignoring the mix teams atm because they should get the balance of both sides (if both sides are balanced)

Right - assuming the "normal" teams... not oddballs like halflings and ogre teams etc:
- Dodgy vs Dodgy: No problems here that I know of.
- Dodgy vs mixed: should have the same issues/non-issues as dodgy vs bashy, but to a less extent.
- Dodgy vs bashy: Dodgy teams hate dwarfs because of tackle abundance and guard because they need a double to get it.
- Bashy vs mixed: same issues as dodgy vs bashy but to a less extent.
- Bashy bs bashy: This is the category where this topic focuses on. Is the balance among the similar tier teams skewed ... and then how?

Again, all theoretical.

First there is the issue of guard, or more correctly... the race for guard. Some teams have to get guard right away to compete against the inherent ST of other teams that have to get block first. Other teams have a mixture of guard/block acquisition. During this race other skills get added to the mix (ball handling, some specialized anti-cage skills ...). All in all things are somewhat even.

Second there is the issue (non-issue) of claw. Bashy vs Bashy teams cas rate should be about the same as dodgy vs dodgy (where dodgy teams don't have that many cas skills but lower armor to fight against) ... this means that skills like MB that give bashy teams those extra cas against dodgy teams doesn't yield the same success against high AV teams... Yes, it is effective enough against AV8 like repeatedly stated which then begs the question why claw also affects AV8? If claw only affected AV9+ then MB would be a "requirement" I guess.

All in all there is strategic room for a skill that specifically targets high AV (not normal AV) ... available to all teams as a normal skill or a double in order to preserve the theoretical cas rate balance between bashy teams. MB becomes less effective as AV becomes higher ... this skill should become less effective as AV becomes lower, to the point where you are striking AV7 with +1 injury or AV8 with +0 to injury.

So, what are the wanted injury levels?
Dodgy teams have AV7 - AV8
Bashy teams have AV8 - AV9

Dodgy teams can get MB on a double yielding: AV6-AV7 and AV7-AV8 respectively
Bashy teams get that with a normal roll but should also be able to get a skill that reduces other bashy teams down to AV6-AV7 ... this is what claw does.

So, what's the problem? Well, the problem is that it's limited access to SOME bashy teams, effectively putting the responsibility of ditching out bashy blood to certain teams over others. I wouldn't argue that claw is too effective, just its access is too restricted among bashy teams ... possibly upsetting the balance of bashy vs bashy in some settings.

[plasmoid]

possibly upsetting the balance of bashy vs bashy in some settings.

Perhaps this is what all this is about.
In full BB, there are several match-ups that favour one side. With 24 very different teams, it is simply impossible to have total equilibrium between all the possible match-ups.

So there are un-even match-ups. And perhaps teams with access to lots of claw do well against the high AV bash teams (orcs and dwarfs). Then again, dwarfs and orcs dominate certain other teams pretty hard. Such is the nature of the game. Personally I do not think that claw is strong enough to be skewing the win-percentage all that much. Damage, perhaps more so, but that damage comes at the cost of versatility.

Take fully pumped tear big holes in high-AV kind of chaos team (i.e. several claw, might, PiOn players) and pit them against AV7 teams with a similar TV and a smattering of fend. Suddenly the chaos team has a lot of wasted TV.

As for the power of claw - I'm pretty sure that if it had only worked against AV9, there would have been an outcry against the lack of blood. For the record, previous versions of the game had a mutation that added +2 to the injury roll (no combo with MB) and piling on gave +ST to the armour roll. So chaos teams could have chaos warriors with +4/+2(!)
Go even further back, and you could use team rerolls (and pro) on armor/injury.

I think it was simply a case of "the nerfing must stop here!"
Cheers
Martin

[Geoff Watson]

They need something more to encourage playing for the win, and not looking at matches solely as an opportunity to build the team in some way.

This has been a major problem in some Open leagues I've played in. For some coaches, team development was all-important and winning didn't matter at all.

Geoff.