Was: Claw Poll - Now: Dice vs RNG

[RogueThirteen]

From what I can see, clawpomb is only a problem in leagues which (a) are truly perpetual, (b) have a disproportionately high number of slayer teams, and (c) allow munchkin team development where results do not matter.

Couldn't agree more, this is a point echoed several times during this thread. Does anyone who has a problem with Claw and/or Piling On really find it to be a problem in a ranked league or tournament setting? It seems the only way ClawPomb could exist is in a never-ending unranked online environment. I guess ClawPomb teams could perform well in a ranked environment after many, many, many losing seasons spent developing several ClawPomb players. And honesty, if someone wants to grind through that misery for about 30-50 games to get a few players possibly Block, Mighty Blow, Piling On, Claw (51+ sp on an AG3 or lower piece), I'd almost have to say more power to them, they've earned it.

[Darkson]

Clawpomb does not appear to be a problem in racially balanced tabletop leagues using the standard ruleset. For online environments where participants believe that clawpomb is a problem, I suggest they first look at things like their house rules, racial balance and playing culture. You have to fix these first before you can determine whether clawpomb is a genuine problem in itself.

Spot on.

[Darkson]

Or we could just leave things as they are...

I agree, but I'd rather do those things than nerf skills even more.

There is always going to be a "best" combo, and if every time people bleat about it (especially in house-ruled environment, which FUMBBL and Cyanide are), then we're going to get to the point where all the skills have been nerfed so much, that they're effectively worthless.

[The Dazzler II]

From what I can see, clawpomb is only a problem in leagues which (a) are truly perpetual, (b) have a disproportionately high number of slayer teams, and (c) allow munchkin team development where results do not matter.

Couldn't agree more, this is a point echoed several times during this thread. Does anyone who has a problem with Claw and/or Piling On really find it to be a problem in a ranked league or tournament setting? It seems the only way ClawPomb could exist is in a never-ending unranked online environment. I guess ClawPomb teams could perform well in a ranked environment after many, many, many losing seasons spent developing several ClawPomb players. And honesty, if someone wants to grind through that misery for about 30-50 games to get a few players possibly Block, Mighty Blow, Piling On, Claw (51+ sp on an AG3 or lower piece), I'd almost have to say more power to them, they've earned it.

I'm with you and Sme on this; i don't have an issue with CPoMB; just some of the environments where you come across an awful lot of it.

No local table-top leagues here (or at least none that i can get to) so its online for me. I'll just be a bit more picky in future and avoid unadministered Open/Perpetual like the plague

[Smeborg]

Or we could just leave things as they are...

I agree, but I'd rather do those things than nerf skills even more.

There is always going to be a "best" combo, and if every time people bleat about it (especially in house-ruled environment, which FUMBBL and Cyanide are), then we're going to get to the point where all the skills have been nerfed so much, that they're effectively worthless.

Darkson - I agree with what you say, and please note I was not asking that Piling On or clawpomb be nerfed. Rather I was arguing on quite other grounds (balance by encouraged playing style, you might call it).

There are plenty of great skill combos out there (especially at team level) that have barely seen the light of day.

All the best.

[Smurf]

IIRC:

Chaos, Chaos Dwarves, Chaos Pact, Underworld, Skaven, Necromantic, Nurgle.

Now to have a team with cpomb combo requires dedication.

The slower teams have problems catching stuff: CDs are not much of problem
Skaven and Necromantic have to either wait for double or only have 2 players with the combo.

Leaving the many unskilled starter teams: Chaos, Chaos Pact, Underworld and Nurgle.

I'm not sure how many games you need to see the ultimate grinders but I have played Nurgle team wanting to go that route and after 23 games it's mean but not that mean.

Currently do not cpomb a massive threat but realise its potential... let's see what my son can do with the Chaos Team.

[MKL]

(...)
Now to have a team with cpomb combo requires dedication.

The slower teams have problems catching stuff: CDs are not much of problem
Skaven and Necromantic have to either wait for double or only have 2 players with the combo.
(...)

Again, CD too need a double, and Necro need two double to make the whole combo.
Minor nitpick away, I agree with your post. Many people forget that with only 2 eligile player, Necro are really not much in the CPoMb boat.

[tchatter]

A nerf to PO is not the way to fix it in my opinion. The buff given to Claw is where the problem lies.

If you nerf PO then you nerf the chance for agility teams to grab that skill and use it as well.

If you nerf MB then you do the same thing.

The only skill that is part of the trinity of Cpomb that agility teams can't access is Claw (excepting Rats).

To me IF there is an issue, Claw is what needs to be looked at, not PO. Also, as posted early in the thread, look at where the "complainers" are coming from. The LRB was not designed to handle FUMBBL or Cyanide and the amount of games played or how those matchups are made, it was designed for TT Leagues. I'm not sure if anyone in TT leagues are complaining?

[dode74]

tchatter, that logic overlooks the point that part of the change to claw was intended to replace aging, which was an AV-neutral effect. Making claw AV-neutral (to the vast majority) by causing all AVs to be treated as 7 is what keeps the relative attrition rates of the varying AVs in line in the same way that aging did; it is important to maintain this. If the issue is that the effect of the 3-skill combo is too high then what needs to happen is that there is a reduction in the effect across-the board. Plasmoid's suggested change to PO (see his thread) reduces the attrition rate equally, thereby achieving the desired effect (see my comments).

[Smeborg]

IIRC:

Chaos, Chaos Dwarves, Chaos Pact, Underworld, Skaven, Necromantic, Nurgle.

Now to have a team with cpomb combo requires dedication.

The slower teams have problems catching stuff: CDs are not much of problem
Skaven and Necromantic have to either wait for double or only have 2 players with the combo.

Leaving the many unskilled starter teams: Chaos, Chaos Pact, Underworld and Nurgle.

I'm not sure how many games you need to see the ultimate grinders but I have played Nurgle team wanting to go that route and after 23 games it's mean but not that mean.

Currently do not cpomb a massive threat but realise its potential... let's see what my son can do with the Chaos Team.

A few years ago, in a well run TT league, I met a Chaos team which had, I think, 3 Chaos Warriors each with Block, M-Blow, Claw (IIRC the 4th had not got Claw yet). It had taken them 22 games to get that far (note no P-On). The Pestigors had plenty of skills, too, mostly ball moving (X-Arms, 2-Heads etc.) and ball hunting (Wrestle, Tackle etc.), with some Block and Guard and 1 or 2 slayer types (I can't remember their skill combos). It all came at quite a high cost. I had a battered Nurgle team (it was my first attempt with them) and I remember having over 700,000 in inducements (enough to hire Morg and Grashnak if I had wanted to). The Chaos team's performance was not remarkable. We were playing a plate semi-final, thus I think we had finished 6th and 7th in the league (out of 12 teams), IIRC the Chaos team was 7th, i.e. not even in the top half after 22 games of round robin. I lost the game when the Chaos team managed a Long Bomb or Long Pass to the end zone (requiring a 6, anyway).

cpomb seems to require 5 or 6 skills to work properly (Block, Claw, M-Blow, P-On, Grab or J-Naut and ideally Tackle too). Even that can be negated on the LoS by Block+Fend+S-Step. If you say 4 slayers as a minimum (3 for the LoS plus 1 Blitzer) then you are looking at a skill investment for Chaos of at least 40 points of TV, not including any Guard or Tackle (which would take it to say 50 points) before ball handling skills. Also probably 40 or 50 games for development (perhaps more), without losing any of the best players. During these games, results are unlikely to be at league-topping level. Having said that, I think Chaos are the best team for this route, as they do not require any doubles, and the Warriors can be skilled up fast with TDs. Chaos Dwarfs are also pretty good, they need a double, but they have a head start (Block+Tackle). But it's easy to see why such teams are not a threat in most TT leagues.

Let us know how your son gets on, though.

[tchatter]

tchatter, that logic overlooks the point that part of the change to claw was intended to replace aging, which was an AV-neutral effect. Making claw AV-neutral (to the vast majority) by causing all AVs to be treated as 7 is what keeps the relative attrition rates of the varying AVs in line in the same way that aging did; it is important to maintain this. If the issue is that the effect of the 3-skill combo is too high then what needs to happen is that there is a reduction in the effect across-the board. Plasmoid's suggested change to PO (see his thread) reduces the attrition rate equally, thereby achieving the desired effect (see my comments).

I can't argue with the numbers, but my other point remains. Are TT leagues seeing this issue as well? Or is this limited to Cyanide/Fumbbl leagues. i.e. TT leagues take a lot of time for teams to get 40 - 50 games under their belts in order to become the clawpomb powerhouses people are talking about. Usually by the time they would get there, coaches have moved on to a different race or they just don't go that route since you are sitting face to face.

Its almost as if this issue is really due to the fact that people are sitting behind a screen getting happy about "killing" pixels and decimating the other team, something that is somewhat rare in TT.

Even coaches from FUMBBL aren't complaining about it in L or R as much, it seems to be B that is having the issue. Maybe because the agility teams don't have access to inducements that they may otherwise have in a TT league, no extra APO? No cards? No Stars? Nothing to help counter the slaughter since teams in B on Fumbbl are matched so that inducements even at 50k are rare.

I'd just rather not see the rules changed for the wrong reason. I personally don't have a problem watching pixels die, at least they went down fighting, ageing was the worst rule ever.

[daloonieshaman]

In TT is is to easy to limit the abilities of "special" player or players
what negs do the players have at that point. IN most TT they would have neg traits, niggling injuries and the like.
go ahead an pile on I'll just foul you
pin your "special guy" and out score you
you guys that play the computer games get babbied and then whine about super combos by a bunch of players on a single team. It doesn't happen in TT unless you are playing in a real strange league and I am talking from a league in an average season will have ~200 games so 800 games a year. Our best single season as an insane season where we had a ton of coaches and ran just short of 1400 games (packing out at a tad of 2k games for the year). In a year the hard core teams will get into the 250-275 range after shaving as much fat as they can on average. Yea you see a couple of nasty players, but they are dealt with. There is always a counter weight. The MAJOR difference of TT v/s computer is the dice, and what the coaches are willing to do. What are your bounty guidelines?
Just cause you break armor it in no way means a KO or INJ. You have about the same chance of getting hurt as being tossed into the crowd.
Fret over a non-issue

[dode74]

Leagues are generally time-limited in that you only get to play once a week (in general). and MM are not limited in that way, and it's not unusual to see teams getting many, many games in a short period. FOL, for example, saw a dozen teams play over 40 games in 55 days, with 80+ coaches playing more than a game a day (some more than 4 a day!). I'd see that higher rate of play and the (rather stupid) TV-based MM as the main factors differentiating the two contexts.

I agree that the rules shouldn't change unless necessary (and personally I don't think change is necessary), but my point was that if there is to be a change then it is important that the means achieve the aim, and suggesting that claw is the problem doesn't do that; Plasmoid's suggestion regarding PO does.

Not sure what you mean by this, loonie:

The MAJOR difference of TT v/s computer is the dice

[daloonieshaman]

age old programming arguement. you cannot program a random die roll.

[tchatter]

What if PO simply had one sentence in its description altered. "The use of Piling On causes a turnover." Since a player on the moving team ends up on the pitch the ref sees it as a turnover.