Journeymen question

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frogboy
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Re: Journeymen question

Post by frogboy »

dentt wrote:
Doesn't that imply that if you have the coin you have to field team player?
No because it says "the team may bring Journeymen onto the roster for free"

May bring is different to has to or must. That's how I would read that rule anyway.

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Re: Journeymen question

Post by dentt »

"may bring Journeymen onto the roster for free until the team can field 11 players for the next match"

you right about the may, but there is a limit of "until the team can field 11 players for the next match" which surely means that when you can field players, the option no longer exists?

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Re: Journeymen question

Post by frogboy »

I can see where your coming from but also the word "can" indicates a choice.

So to me that whole sentence indicates a choice. If you want a Journeyman then you can have one. It doesn't say you must have one.

I may be showing my lack of knowledge here but from what I've read of Jervis Johnson he likes to write rules which give us a choice. We can interprete them to best serve us and combined with some fluff can pretty much go in any direction. (This is the bit where you tell me he didn't write that rule)

Now this is all very well when your playing your mates in the man cave but for online gaming and competitive play not so sure it can work the same way :)

Anyways just so where clear, I'm not arguing with you on your interpretation, I'm just giving mine. These discussions quite often can get out of hand.

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Re: Journeymen question

Post by Darkson »

frogboy's interpretation is correct. It has always been the intention that a coach who has less than 11 rostered players can choose to take JM up to 11 if they wish - they're not forced to, just the same as they're not forced to replace a player if they have the money for it.
Technically, a team could have 0 active players and take 11 JM every game and bank the money every game (might work in a long-term league, but I doubt it would be much fun).

Also remember that the rules are written around an Open league structure, where the coach doesn't know who their next opponent is, and the JM are taken in the Post-match phase, not in the Inducements phase.

Not sure why FUMBBL thinks there an abuse in the JM rules. If someone is constantly running JM then they're limiting themselves to 11 players per game (unless they can take Mercs and/or Stars, which isn't guaranteed). If opposing coaches don't like it, just target their non-JM players.

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Re: Journeymen question

Post by dentt »

I can see you don't have to buy players, but it seems to me that if you have the coin, the option to take JM is closed and the choice is then to play short or not.

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Re: Journeymen question

Post by Elyoukey »

Darkson wrote: Technically, a team could have 0 active players and take 11 JM every game and bank the money every game (might work in a long-term league, but I doubt it would be much fun).
On a gaming point of view may be not, but on a fluff point of view it would be very fun to consider a coach just stacking money on a "ghost" team.

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Re: Journeymen question

Post by Darkson »

dentt wrote:I can see you don't have to buy players, but it seems to me that if you have the coin, the option to take JM is closed and the choice is then to play short or not.
Where in the rules does it say you HAVE to buy players up to 11 if you have the money? Nowhere, other than when starting a team.
Both JJ and Galak made it clear when the rules were being tested - you are NEVER forced to buy a player, and you are NEVER forced to take JM.

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Re: Journeymen question

Post by dentt »

Darkson wrote:
dentt wrote:I can see you don't have to buy players, but it seems to me that if you have the coin, the option to take JM is closed and the choice is then to play short or not.
Where in the rules does it say you HAVE to buy players up to 11 if you have the money? Nowhere, other than when starting a team.
Both JJ and Galak made it clear when the rules were being tested - you are NEVER forced to buy a player, and you are NEVER forced to take JM.
I am saying I think the rule says, that while you don't have to buy a player, you cant buy a journeyman if you have the money to buy a player, but I agree that you don't have to buy a player

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Re: Journeymen question

Post by spubbbba »

I think the rule was added to FUMBBL to stop people having a team with 2 or 3 star players and the rest journeymen for a load of games to build up a big bank balance. It's probably to help limit min-maxing as well since elves and certain bashy teams can do well at that by using the journeymen as fodder.

One of the things I like less about crp is how you are now better off having a few stars rather than evenly spread spp's.

The tricky part is where to draw the line, 1 or 2 elf journeymen on a high TV team with only 200K cash may want to save it in case they lose a couple of positionals at the start of a tournament. But 2 legend stat boosted clawpomb marauders/beastmen with 9 journeymen and 1 million in the bank for 100+ games seems a little excessive.

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Re: Journeymen question

Post by Darkson »

dentt wrote:I am saying I think the rule says, that while you don't have to buy a player, you cant buy a journeyman if you have the money to buy a player, but I agree that you don't have to buy a player
Well, you'd think wrong.
7. If a team can only field 10 or less players for the next match,
the team may bring Journeymen onto the roster for free until the
team can field 11 players for the next match.
No where in #7, or any of the points earlier, does it say that this rule is suspended if you have money in the treasury.
Of course, you or your commissioner can house-rule differently (as FUMBBL has done), but the rules as written, and as confirmed by JJ and Galak, say that if you have less than 11 players on the roster you may take JM to make the roster up to 11. It doesn't matter if you have 0gc or 1,000,000gc in the treasury, less than 11 players gives you access to JM.

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Re: Journeymen question

Post by adhansa »

Darkson wrote:
dentt wrote:I am saying I think the rule says, that while you don't have to buy a player, you cant buy a journeyman if you have the money to buy a player, but I agree that you don't have to buy a player
Well, you'd think wrong.
7. If a team can only field 10 or less players for the next match,
the team may bring Journeymen onto the roster for free until the
team can field 11 players for the next match.
No where in #7, or any of the points earlier, does it say that this rule is suspended if you have money in the treasury.
Of course, you or your commissioner can house-rule differently (as FUMBBL has done), but the rules as written, and as confirmed by JJ and Galak, say that if you have less than 11 players on the roster you may take JM to make the roster up to 11. It doesn't matter if you have 0gc or 1,000,000gc in the treasury, less than 11 players gives you access to JM.
Speaking from a just logic point of view:
Im inside a house. The door is closed. I can go outside the house IF i open the door.
Can i go outside or not?

I think that can be interpeted either way.

As the rules have bin clarified they cannot.

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Re: Journeymen question

Post by frogboy »

And its at this point that threads like these take a turn for the worse...

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Re: Journeymen question

Post by Dr. Von Richten »

I think this whole problem can be solved by a generous application of 'don't be a d*ck'. Just like the '10 Marauders and a Dark Elf Chaos Pact Team that has multiple ClawPOMBers at TV 1000' problem, or any other 'yes it's legal, but you just don't do that' problem that crops up amongst the 'less-than-socially-adept', especially those engaged in a format that enables large gains for acting this way and lack of direct witnessing of the consequences.

So I think you've solved this problem pretty well on FUMMBL; assuming that the enforcers of this, deliberately vague, rule are reasonable human beings. Which I believe they are. :D

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Re: Journeymen question

Post by mzukerman »

Fassbinder75 wrote:Additionally the 'spirit' indicates you must try and field 11 players at all times, which would mean buying Rotters instead of a replacement Beast, Hobgoblins instead a Bull Centaur or Zombies instead of a Werewolf.

The phantom illness that is 'Journeyman Abuse' is usually just a coach wanting to fix a broken roster in the optimal manner, rather than blowing cash on mere bodies.
+1

This is the key. When I play any elf team (online or tabletop), I invariably find myself in a position where my players are getting killed or maimed. I will gladly release them but won't replace them until I get the requisite cash to do it with the right position. Or when I'm in team building mode. If my target is to get a catcher or a war dancer, I am not going to replace the dead linemen with another lineman. I'll just go with the journeyman until I get enough to buy the lineman. Or even that reroll that I'm saving up for. You won't seem me amass a ton of money while I'm playing journeyman, but I'm not going to spend just for spending's sake.

I do not feel that this is taking advantage of the rules. Not at all.

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Re: Journeymen question

Post by dentt »

Darkson wrote:
dentt wrote:I am saying I think the rule says, that while you don't have to buy a player, you cant buy a journeyman if you have the money to buy a player, but I agree that you don't have to buy a player
Well, you'd think wrong.
7. If a team can only field 10 or less players for the next match,
the team may bring Journeymen onto the roster for free until the
team can field 11 players for the next match.
No where in #7, or any of the points earlier, does it say that this rule is suspended if you have money in the treasury.
Of course, you or your commissioner can house-rule differently (as FUMBBL has done), but the rules as written, and as confirmed by JJ and Galak, say that if you have less than 11 players on the roster you may take JM to make the roster up to 11. It doesn't matter if you have 0gc or 1,000,000gc in the treasury, less than 11 players gives you access to JM.
I thought the limit for taking free Journeymen is clear "until the team can field 11 players for the next match" but I didn't know about the confirmation.

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