Failed GFI in endzone, TD or not?

[CyberedElf]

Went through to make sure I read everything and this would be my ruling:

1) Nothing on page 8 says the TURN ends immediately ... its say the ACTION ends immediately and that the TURN enters into a wrap up process.

Doesn't this mean that the ball is caught after the end of the Action?
Or, do you mean that the Turn wrap up is part of the Action ending immediately? If the turn wrap up is part of the Action ending, then this is where my assumptions were incorrect and I would completely change my opinion. If this is my error, please say so, and ignore the rest of my post. If I am wrong for some other reason, then I seek further enlightenment.

2) In addition to not saying explicitly that the turn ends immediately, it in fact says that many things happen BEFORE the turn ends as a wrap-up to the turn. Making it clear that there are many events that take place before the turn ends.

3) When we read page 15 and see the text "at the end of any of your players' Actions". We look at the items from 1 and 2 above.
a) Is the Action ended, YES.
b) Is the turn ended when the player has the ball in his possession, NO.
So that would mean that the condition for the touchdown has been met.

I'm thoroughly confused. Did you mean "YES" on b? The ball is in his possession at the end of the turn. Or, did you mean catching the ball does not end the turn? Either way, I do not see how this is relevant to satisfying the condition of the ball needing to be possessed at the end of the Action.
If the Action ends before the ball is possessed, how is the condition met? I completely understand that there is a wrap-up before the turn ending. I just thought it occurred after the action ended, therefore the condition for scoring in your turn is not satisfied.

As another look at it: Move the GFI to the other end of the pitch and now have an opponent catch the ball. Would you argue that this is not TD? I would say the wording of the rulebook makes it clear that it is a TD. So in effect saying the scenario under discussion is not a TD would suggest rules in direct opposition to each other for how TD scoring works. That was definitely not the spirit of the game design.

There specifically are different rules for scoring on my turn or on my opponents. Since they are different doesn't that mean that they could be in opposition to each other.

Also, I thought there was already an inconsistency concerning Frenzy and TDs. If the ball carrier uses Frenzy to enter the end zone, the second hit still occurs because the action has not ended, but if the ball carrier is hit into the end zone the TD occurs immediately and the second hit would not occur. (In the first case a side-stepper could even prevent the TD by forcing the ball carrier to follow up out of the end zone before the Action ended.) The rules are written with different conditions to score on my turn or on my opponents.

A 2nd another way to look at this ... the game was not designed to have inconsistent rulings just based on what turn it is. If the scenario happened on turns 1 to 7 ... no one would argue that a TD has been scored. So to say that Turn 8 has a different ruling was really not in the spirit of the game design. However ... I do not think this is an issue as to my read a TD is scored with the current wording in the rulebook.

Galak

The rules obviously are different depending on if it is my turn or my opponents. Since it would be simpler to make scoring on my turn or my opponents consistent, I assumed that the difference was intentional. On 1-7 I would not argue that a TD was not scored, but I would argue that it uses another turn, that is not available in the bottom of turn 8/16.
Heaven forbid I use a basketball analogy: you can shoot before the buzzer and it counts, but if you shoot before the buzzer and the alley-oop is after the buzzer it does not count. Time has run out.

No matter that I don't understand your reasoning, I accept your intent. I will assume that the turn wrap-up is part of the Action ending immediately.

[GalakStarscraper]

CyberElf,

For ease of the discussion ... what I'm saying is that the test for end of Action is not a hard stop as soon as the GFI happens. The wrap-up is definitely part of fully resolving the turn.

My argument is that the turn is not over when the GFI is failed. A player's action has ended and then before the turn was over a player had the ball ... both conditions are thus satisfied and thus a TD is scored.

Saying it this way might be interpreted as the resolving afterward being part of the Action. If that makes it easier ... go with that.

The Vampire team was the major reason the TD rules were written the way they were (pretty much the only reason). The easier approach was to say that immediately upon entering the End Zone a TD is scored either way but then you have failed Blood Lust Vampire scoring TDs without biting. JJ was already against the long wording of Blood Lust so it was easier to say it happened after the end of an Action than immediately. (thus causing the Frenzy situation you described which was accurate which as far as I know is the only way for a ball to be in an opposing endzone at any time (other than with a Vampire) and not have a TD scored at the end). The intent when we were designing the rules was to work with the Vampire and do our best to make it so that if the ball entered the opposing end zone and finished the turn in a player's hand that a TD was scored. We used the immediate for opposing team because it had no interaction with the Vampire team at all and prevented Frenzy push outs and we also made sure that the 1 turn penalty was not required for it to be a TD.

The TD scoring is really trying to say "after the end of a Action" ... I see now that by just saying "at the end of an Action" that makes some people think it is an instantaneous moment in time. I would definitely argue that as an incorrect reading of the rules for the turn wrap-up and turnover rules but I can see where the confusion comes from.

[CyberedElf]

For this reply and all else you have done and continue to do for Blood Bowl, my sincere appreciation.

[el Superbeasto]

Went through to make sure I read everything and this would be my ruling:

1) Nothing on page 8 says the TURN ends immediately ... its say the ACTION ends immediately and that the TURN enters into a wrap up process.

2) In addition to not saying explicitly that the turn ends immediately, it in fact says that many things happen BEFORE the turn ends as a wrap-up to the turn. Making it clear that there are many events that take place before the turn ends.

Sorry to be the devil's advocate, but on page 20 under "Going for it!" it says:
"If the player is Knocked Down, then his team suffers a turnover and their turn ends immediately."
Wouldn't that mean, that the bouncing of the ball would be an in-between-turns event rather than a wrap-up event?

Another similar situation would be the attempt to pick up the ball in the endzone (in the final turn 8 ). Say the pick-up fails. The rules on page 8 state:
"If the player drops the ball then his team suffers a turnover and their turn ends immediately."
Would you also here roll where the ball bounces to before the turnover, thus making it possible for a team mate (who also happened to be in the endzone) to catch the bouncing ball and score a touchdown?

Thanks for helping with these clarifications, Tom!

[GalakStarscraper]

Both of those are unfortunate carry overs of text from earlier editions of the game that didn't get caught. They should not say that and in fact they cannot be correct because that would imply that you don't roll for armour and injury as the turn is immediately over and the rules do not describe events that happen between turns. As far as I know the only thing that happens between turns in the game is the catch roll of a Kick-off if the ball is coming down in an occupied square.

You can rules lawyer this if you so choose ... but if someone had brought this up many years ago both of those would something like "the turn immediately enters the end of turn wrap-up described on page 8."

[MattDakka]

I remember that in a BB1 match some years ago one opponent's Dwarf player failed a dodge (not a GFI) to the square where the ball was, it then scattered and got caught by another Dwarf player standing in the End Zone, who scored the TD.

[el Superbeasto]

Both of those are unfortunate carry overs of text from earlier editions of the game that didn't get caught. They should not say that and in fact they cannot be correct because that would imply that you don't roll for armour and injury as the turn is immediately over and the rules do not describe events that happen between turns. As far as I know the only thing that happens between turns in the game is the catch roll of a Kick-off if the ball is coming down in an occupied square.

You can rules lawyer this if you so choose ... but if someone had brought this up many years ago both of those would something like "the turn immediately enters the end of turn wrap-up described on page 8."

All those things you mention could still happen even though the turn had ended and no touchdown could be made. -But maybe it's because us Europeans think in football/soccer terms. To me at least, a turnover is like the whistle being blown in soccer. People can still get hurt and the ball will still bounce around, but no goal would count since the whistle had been blown.

Anyway, I appreciate the original intention of the rules you describe and will stick with those. Makes for more spectacular scenes as well.

Cheers,

[Aliboon]

All those things you mention could still happen even though the turn had ended and no touchdown could be made. -But maybe it's because us Europeans think in football/soccer terms. To me at least, a turnover is like the whistle being blown in soccer. People can still get hurt and the ball will still bounce around, but no goal would count since the whistle had been blown.

I wouldn't agree with that- I would put money on that most of those saying it was a Td were British (like me). You could also look to rugby where the game runs out of time, but doesn't stop until the ball goes out of play. But I don't suppose rugby is a very big game in Denmark? Personally I think this version of bb plays more like rugby than anything else, but that is somewhat off topic.

[Regash]

this version of bb plays more like rugby than anything else

But still it is called "Nuffle Amorical Football"!

[Darkson]

this version of bb plays more like rugby than anything else

But still it is called "Nuffle Amorical Football"!

Well, on a fumble the refs don't whistle until the ball is recovered, so that works to.

[petitgars]

Hi alls.

Is it possible to use a team reroll AFTER a turnover?

Ex :
pickup (for instance with surehands) : FAILED.
Bounced => dice of catching (different player).

Is it possible to use a team reroll for the catch ?

[Afroman]

Hi alls.

Is it possible to use a team reroll AFTER a turnover?

Ex :
pickup (for instance with surehands) : FAILED.
Bounced => dice of catching (different player).

Is it possible to use a team reroll for the catch ?

I think the TO doesn't actually happen before the ball stops. So in your scenario, the failed pickup garantees the TO but the TO won't actually happen as long as the ball is in motion. So you can use a RR on the failed Catch.

[petitgars]

Thanks.

[Bakunin]

Hi alls.

Is it possible to use a team reroll AFTER a turnover?

Ex :
pickup (for instance with surehands) : FAILED.
Bounced => dice of catching (different player).

Is it possible to use a team reroll for the catch ?

I think the TO doesn't actually happen before the ball stops. So in your scenario, the failed pickup garantees the TO but the TO won't actually happen as long as the ball is in motion. So you can use a RR on the failed Catch.

Sorry but this wrong. Your turn is over as soon as the TO happens. Cant use RR.

[plasmoid]

Doesn't that run counter to what Galak said above: That the turn enters wrap-up process, but isn't over until it has actually been wrapped up.

Or to put it differently: There is no in-between turns. There are only Team A turns, Team B turns, and kick-offs. So, if it happens before the opponent moves his turn marker, then you could still use your team reroll. (Admittedly, I did not read the 3 pages prior to this one).

Cheers
Martin