Failed GFI in endzone, TD or not?

[Darkson]

If a player carrying the ball is Knocked Down or Placed Prone, he will drop the ball in the square where he falls. The dropped ball will bounce one square in a random direction (see Bouncing Balls, page 13) after the player"s armour and injury rolls (if any) are fully resolved.

The turnover does not take place until the ball finally comes to rest.

Where is this contradicted anywhere in the rules?

[RoterSternHochdahl]

@Be4ch

Look at the consequence of your interpretation:

Pretty clear for the question very last turn of either half: no TD, match over.

But if this did not happen in turn 8 or 16 but in one or the other turns?

You say: no TD, Turnover. The other player starts his turn and what happens: TD, Turnover! (Rule "Scoring on your oponents turn"). Thus, the result would be the same, however, both players lose a turn. Hardly the consequence intended by the rules.

WORSE: Your interpretation would lead to different results depending on who started the half. Because if I failed this GFI with a subsequent catch of one of my players and you still had your turn 8/16 I would actually score a touchdown according to the quoted rule, but I would not if you started the half and you had no turn after mine in the same half. No way, this is the right way of reading the rules

[Loki]

In any league I'm Commishing, it would be a TD.

I think anyone arguing that it's not a TD is playing Rules Lawyer and either by accident or design deliberately ignoring the intention of the rules that being if at the end of your turn* one of your players is holding the ball in the endzone you have scored a TD.

By which I mean, a turn as being the end of your set of actions when all armours been rolled, balls stopped bouncing, being thrown-in, etc, not the point at which you roll a 1 for a GFI.

[Be4ch]

If a player carrying the ball is Knocked Down or Placed Prone, he will drop the ball in the square where he falls. The dropped ball will bounce one square in a random direction (see Bouncing Balls, page 13) after the player"s armour and injury rolls (if any) are fully resolved.

The turnover does not take place until the ball finally comes to rest.

Where is this contradicted anywhere in the rules?

P13, as you well know Darkson, is concerned with throwing the ball and it's tru that teh turnover does not occur until the thrown ball comes to rest. I've never disagreed with that point. It does not apply to bouncing balls though. If it did a then a failed pick-up which bounced to another player and was caught would not be a turnover but it is as per the full list of Turnover event on p7. You cherry picking rules and quoting them out of context doesn't really validate your point of view in any way. The turnover rule is quite clear in that a turnover occurs when a player on the moving team is knocked down.

Look at the consequence of your interpretation:

That's not my interpretation, that's how the rules read. I'm quite sure that if they meant at the end of your turn then it would say "at the end of your turn" but it doesn't, it clearly says at the end of a players action.

I think anyone arguing that it's not a TD is playing Rules Lawyer and either by accident or design deliberately ignoring the intention of the rules that being if at the end of your turn* one of your players is holding the ball in the endzone you have scored a TD.

By which I mean, a turn as being the end of your set of actions when all armours been rolled, balls stopped bouncing, being thrown-in, etc, not the point at which you roll a 1 for a GFI.

"rules lawyering"? I'm reading the rules as they were written to answer a question. I would have no problem with you or any commissioner giving a TD and wouldn't argue against the decision. The commissioner word is final is something else I believe is in the rule book (unless I'm lawyering again, in which case I apologise).

Have to disagree with your last comment. The action ends the minute you roll the 1 and can't or won't RR it to a success. Otherwise, following your interpretation, I could Blitz, fail a GFI and still throw my block - my action not ending at the point I rolled the 1 but at the end of my "set of actions".

[Loki]

"rules lawyering"? I'm reading the rules as they were written to answer a question. I would have no problem with you or any commissioner giving a TD and wouldn't argue against the decision. The commissioner word is final is something else I believe is in the rule book (unless I'm lawyering again, in which case I apologise).

Have to disagree with your last comment. The action ends the minute you roll the 1 and can't or won't RR it to a success. Otherwise, following your interpretation, I could Blitz, fail a GFI and still throw my block - my action not ending at the point I rolled the 1 but at the end of my "set of actions".

I'll repeat then without the obviously inflammatory tag, you are picking and choosing rules to support your view and ignoring the bigger picture (RAW and RAI are the domain of ... well let's not go there again)

The GFI/Blitz example is ludicrous, are you deliberately misunderstanding what I've written? If you fail the GFI you finish up the outstanding issues, armour, if the Blitzer had the ball bounce it with appropriate follow-ons and then end the turn. No one is saying if you fail the GFI you can just keep on doing new things, just finish up your 'turn'.

[Darkson]

P13, as you well know Darkson, is concerned with throwing the ball and it's tru that teh turnover does not occur until the thrown ball comes to rest. I've never disagreed with that point. It does not apply to bouncing balls though. If it did a then a failed pick-up which bounced to another player and was caught would not be a turnover but it is as per the full list of Turnover event on p7. You cherry picking rules and quoting them out of context doesn't really validate your point of view in any way. The turnover rule is quite clear in that a turnover occurs when a player on the moving team is knocked down.

So you're saying that the rules are different for when a turn ends in relation to resolving av/inj and bouncing balls depending on what the turnover is, rather than just having one. I'm afraid that's rubbish.
A failed pick-up would still be a turnover regardless of whether the ball is recovered, because a failed pick-up is specifically listed as a turnover, exactly the same as a fumble is listed as a turnover even if the ball still ends up in the hands of one of your players.
At at what point did I say a turnover didn't happen? Oh, and a TD is a turnover.

[Vanguard]

Considering the 'spirit and intention of the rules' I would say it is a TD, but I have to agree with Be4ch from a 'letter of the law' point of view.

The following events cause a turnover:
1. A player on the moving team is Knocked Down
...
A coach that suffers a turnover is not allowed to take any further Actions that turn, and any Action being taken ends immediately even if it was only partially completed. Make armour and injury rolls for players that were knocked down, and if the ball was dropped then roll to see where it bounces to normally.

If a ball thrown by a player isn’t caught by a player from the moving team, this causes a turnover and the moving team’s turn ends. The turnover does not take place until the ball finally comes to rest.

A team scores a touchdown during their turn when one of their players is standing in the opposing team’s End Zone while holding the ball at the end of any of your players' Actions.

I've quoted what I consider to be the relevant parts of the CRP above.

• When the GFI is failed, it is an immediate Turnover and the player's action ends.
• Darkson's point about the Turnover not happening until the ball comes to rest is specific to failed passes and I do not think applies here. In fact, I think it highlights that this is an exception to the normal ruling for a bouncing ball.
• A touchdown is scored at the end of an Action in your own turn.

The only grey area I can see is in the actual Turnover rule. It specifies that the Action ends immediately but also specifies the other events that still need to take place (armour, injury, bounce). Depending on your interpretation, you could consider that these are to be treated as part of the action. That the player's action ending immediately refers to voluntary components of the action and are no longer possible while required components (armour, injury, bounce, etc) are still to occur.

However, on balance I'd say that this is a flaw in the wording of the rules and a Touchdown should be awarded if a player is standing in the endzone, holding the ball at the end of any action or turn.

[Loki]

The argument appears to revolve around the interaction of 'Action being taken ends immediately' which quite clearly says "Make ... and if the ball was dropped then roll to see where it bounces to normally." and "A team scores a touchdown during their turn when one of their players is standing in the opposing team’s End Zone while holding the ball at the end of any of your players' Actions."

In the example the GFI causes the Action in this case a Move Action to cease immediately, rules say to make bounce as normal (ball bounces into your player in endzone), Action has now finished completely. So after "any players action" attacking player has the ball in the endzone. The Action ended but the turn didn't and after the Action fully completed the player is holding the ball in the endzone.

Does it say somewhere that the turnover ends the Turn immediately, no, just the Action. Do the rules say how 'long' after the end of the Action to look at your players, no, just that after your player's action if one of your players is holding the ball in the endzone it's a TD.

To say that the armour roll and bounce do not take place in your turn would be adding to the rules and would require further rules, it's not interpretational, they're just not there. The rules make it clear to turn over your Stunned players, then it the other coaches turn. If at the end of your turn one of your players is holding the ball in the end zone then it's a TD. Arguing that there is a 'timeframe' for "at the end of any of your players' Actions" makes it seem like there is a debate. I agree that some of the wording leaves an avenue disagreement which we are having but actually I think the spirit and letter are the same in this case.

[Regash]

P13, as you well know Darkson, is concerned with throwing the ball and it's tru that teh turnover does not occur until the thrown ball comes to rest. I've never disagreed with that point. It does not apply to bouncing balls though. If it did a then a failed pick-up which bounced to another player and was caught would not be a turnover but it is as per the full list of Turnover event on p7. You cherry picking rules and quoting them out of context doesn't really validate your point of view in any way. The turnover rule is quite clear in that a turnover occurs when a player on the moving team is knocked down.

The difference here is that the pass didn't fail! It is just not accurate, making it harder to catch! So the turnover is practically triggered by the failed catch, not the failed pass!
Fumbles, by the way, are in the extra rules section, not the basic rules. Here is what it says:

Fumbles
Sometimes a player attempting to throw the ball will drop it in his own square. This is more likely if the player has any opposing players breathing down his neck! To represent this, if the D6 roll for a pass is 1 or less before or after modification, then the thrower has fumbled and dropped the ball. The ball will bounce once from the thrower’s square, and the moving team will suffer a turnover and their turn ends immediately.

Please note that this turnover is also AFTER the bouncing of the ball, only this time catching it doesn't prevent the turnover!

[rolo]

P13, as you well know Darkson, is concerned with throwing the ball and it's tru that teh turnover does not occur until the thrown ball comes to rest. I've never disagreed with that point. It does not apply to bouncing balls though. If it did a then a failed pick-up which bounced to another player and was caught would not be a turnover but it is as per the full list of Turnover event on p7. You cherry picking rules and quoting them out of context doesn't really validate your point of view in any way. The turnover rule is quite clear in that a turnover occurs when a player on the moving team is knocked down.

The difference here is that the pass didn't fail! It is just not accurate, making it harder to catch! So the turnover is practically triggered by the failed catch, not the failed pass!

The difference here is that there is no pass. A Pass is an action. If you declare a pass action, and it's inaccurate or whatever and doesn't go to the intended recipient, but a member of your own team ends up with the ball, it's not even a turnover.

What we're arguing about here is a failed go-for-it. That is unambiguously a turnover even if you're not carrying the ball.

So what we're trying to decide is, if AFTER a turnover, on the last turn of the game, a player on the offense ends up with the ball, is it a touchdown or has the game already ended?

It "feels" to me like it "should" be a touchdown but the rules are ambiguous enough that there's at least room for argument.

[Aliboon]

Ok, to those arguing that the TD doesn't happen in the moving players's turn, how do you explain the bit in bold below?

CRP p.8 wrote:
A coach that suffers a turnover is not allowed to take any further Actions that turn, and any Action being taken ends immediately even if it was only partially completed. Make armour and injury rolls for players that were knocked down, and if the ball was dropped then roll to see where it bounces to normally. Stunned players should be turned face up, and then the opposing coach may start to take his turn.

[CyberedElf]

The turnover does not take place until the ball finally comes to rest.

Where is this contradicted anywhere in the rules?

Your quote from page 13 is not contradicted, you are just taking it out of context. It is in the section "THROWING THE BALL." The previous sentence starts "If a ball thrown . . ." This quote from page 13 applies to turnover #2. Turnover #2 even uses "comes to rest," but this language is excluded from all of the other turnovers. There is no reason to believe that it would apply to any other type of turnover.

I think anyone arguing that it's not a TD is playing Rules Lawyer and either by accident or design deliberately ignoring the intention of the rules that being if at the end of your turn* one of your players is holding the ball in the endzone you have scored a TD.

I disagree with that as the intention. I think you are adding your own desired intention. Please provide a source (preferably from a designer) as to why what you believe the intent to be is more correct.

Do the rules say how 'long' after the end of the Action to look at your players, no, just that after your player's action if one of your players is holding the ball in the endzone it's a TD.

The rules do not say "after" at all. Please read Galak's comments in the other thread. I think he makes it obvious that when the rules read "at the end," it should not be interpreted to allow any "after the end." While the other thread is a completely different situation, I believe it directly shows how the quotes "Action . . . ends immediately" and "at the end of . . . Action" are intended to interact.

Ok, to those arguing that the TD doesn't happen in the moving players's turn, how do you explain the bit in bold below?

Please explain what you do not understand about that "bit."

[Loki]

Please read Galak's comments in the other thread.

Other thread?

More than happy for Galak or BBRC to chip in here, think we could be waiting a while for Jervis.

But I think it's spurious to suggest that the game which is based on American Football isn't INTENDED to mimic American Football. If the ball is fumbled at the 1 yard line and the attacking team recover in the end zone it is a TD.

[Aliboon]

Aliboon wrote:

Ok, to those arguing that the TD doesn't happen in the moving players's turn, how do you explain the bit in bold below?

Please explain what you do not understand about that "bit."

I understand it, but it is unambiguous in that the next turn cannot start until the ball has bounced. How then can the TD not be scored in the moving players turn if the opposing player can't start his turn until until the ball has bounced (and been caught in the endzone)?

CRP p.8 wrote:
A coach that suffers a turnover is not allowed to take any further Actions that turn, and any Action being taken ends immediately even if it was only partially completed. Make armour and injury rolls for players that were knocked down, and if the ball was dropped then roll to see where it bounces to normally. Stunned players should be turned face up, and then the opposing coach may start to take his turn.

Those arguing that the TD doesn't occur are spuriously arguing that the Turn ends immediately after a player's Actions ends (i.e. exactly when the turnover event occurs) and the TD cannot be scored because it must be when a player is in the endzone with the ball immediately at the end of a players action. Nowhere in the rules does it say immediately, just the TD is scored after a player's action has ended (which it has in the case of a failed GFI ending the Movement Action).

[GalakStarscraper]

Went through to make sure I read everything and this would be my ruling:

1) Nothing on page 8 says the TURN ends immediately ... its say the ACTION ends immediately and that the TURN enters into a wrap up process.

2) In addition to not saying explicitly that the turn ends immediately, it in fact says that many things happen BEFORE the turn ends as a wrap-up to the turn. Making it clear that there are many events that take place before the turn ends.

3) When we read page 15 and see the text "at the end of any of your players' Actions". We look at the items from 1 and 2 above.
a) Is the Action ended, YES.
b) Is the turn ended when the player has the ball in his possession, NO.
So that would mean that the condition for the touchdown has been met.

As another look at it: Move the GFI to the other end of the pitch and now have an opponent catch the ball. Would you argue that this is not TD? I would say the wording of the rulebook makes it clear that it is a TD. So in effect saying the scenario under discussion is not a TD would suggest rules in direct opposition to each other for how TD scoring works. That was definitely not the spirit of the game design.

A 2nd another way to look at this ... the game was not designed to have inconsistent rulings just based on what turn it is. If the scenario happened on turns 1 to 7 ... no one would argue that a TD has been scored. So to say that Turn 8 has a different ruling was really not in the spirit of the game design. However ... I do not think this is an issue as to my read a TD is scored with the current wording in the rulebook.

Galak