Failed GFI in endzone, TD or not?

[burgun824]

Interesting. Never have been in a position to be able to think that far ahead.

[CyberedElf]

A coach that suffers a turnover is not allowed to take any further Actions that turn, and any Action being taken ends immediately even if it was only partially completed. Make armour and injury rolls for players that were knocked down, and if the ball was dropped then roll to see where it bounces to normally. Stunned players should be turned face up, and then the opposing coach
may start to take his turn.

So the turn doesn't end until the "clean-up" is done.

A team scores a touchdown during their turn when one of their players is standing in the opposing team’s End Zone while holding the ball at the end of any of your players' Actions.

Emphasis as per the CRP.

There is a difference between turn and Action. If an action ends immediately, then it is before any other rolls! And a TD is scored if a player is holding the ball in the End Zone "at the end of any of your players' Actions".

In this case the Action has already ended when the player catches the bounce. => no TD until the opponents turn.

+1

If it were not end of half/game the TD occurs on your opponent's turn.

I would rule that I get the TD.

Yes.
Your turn ends when your player fails the GFI, after that the ball bounces and IF it is caught by another player on your team standing in the End Zone THEN the TD is scored, technically in-between your just-ended turn and your opponent's turn.

No.
Technically you can only score on your own turn or on your opponents turn.
Either you score at the end of your player's Action (not end of turn), or "if one of your players is holding the ball in the opposing team's End Zone at any point during your opponent's turn." (p. 15)

Disagreeing with a rule that does not change it.

[Aliboon]

No.
Technically you can only score on your own turn or on your opponents turn.
Either you score at the end of your player's Action (not end of turn), or "if one of your players is holding the ball in the opposing team's End Zone at any point during your opponent's turn." (p. 15)

Disagreeing with a rule that does not change it.

Sorry Noble and CyberElf, the score is at the end of his turn, not at the beginning of the opponents next turn. Darkson quotes explains all:

Darkson wrote:
CRP p.8 wrote:
A coach that suffers a turnover is not allowed to take any further Actions that turn, and any Action being taken ends immediately even if it was only partially completed. Make armour and injury rolls for players that were knocked down, and if the ball was dropped then roll to see where it bounces to normally. Stunned players should be turned face up, and then the opposing coach
may start to take his turn.

So the turn doesn't end until the "clean-up" is done.
CRP p.15 wrote:
A team scores a touchdown during their turn when one of their players is standing in the opposing team’s End Zone while holding the ball at the end of any of your players' Actions.

I've added emphasis in italics. A turnover means no more Actions, catching a bouncing ball isn't an Action, therefore the score is made before the opposing coach "may start his turn". If your interpretation of the TD being scored in the oppositions next turn were true, then a player passing the ball to a player in the endzone wouldn't result in a TD at the end of the passing players turn (rather at the beginning of the opo's turn), and that is obviously nonsense.

[CyberedElf]

Someone is really missing something. Maybe it is me. If it is I apologize, would some one point out in very simple terms what I am not seeing.
I agree that the quotes from Darkson should explain it.

The order of events:
1. There is a turnover.
2. The action ends immediately.
3. The ball bounces and is caught in End Zone.
4. The turn ends and the next player's turn starts (if the game does not end).

No player is "holding the ball at the end of any of your players' Actions." The Action ends on #2 above, when no player has the ball.
The Action ended before the ball bounced. So the coach that had the turnover could not have scored on his turn.
I agree that the "turn" did not end until after the player had the ball in the End Zone, but the "Action" ended earlier. Since, TDs on your turn only occur at the end of an Action, the TD does not occur before the opponent's turn.

A successful pass is a different situation. There is no turnover. The pass (and catch) are part of the Pass Action. A player is holding the ball in the End Zone at the end of the Pass Action.

[Darkson]

Does failing a GFI end an action? Yes.
Has the ball been caught in the EZ at the end of an action? Yes.

So TD.

Nowhere does it say the TD has to be immediately when the action ends, just after the end of an action.

[Aliboon]

A successful pass is a different situation. There is no turnover. The pass (and catch) are part of the Pass Action. A player is holding the ball in the End Zone at the end of the Pass Action.

The catch isn't part of the Pass Action though, the Pass Action ends as soon as the (possibly rerolled) pass dice roll has been made, so the player who catches the ball has caught the ball after the Pass Action had been completed, exactly the same as the player in the endzone who catches the ball to score the TZ catches it after the player who fails his GFI roll has ended his Move Action.

[gregory_n_white]

The catch isn't part of the Pass Action though, the Pass Action ends as soon as the (possibly rerolled) pass dice roll has been made, so the player who catches the ball has caught the ball after the Pass Action had been completed, exactly the same as the player in the endzone who catches the ball to score the TZ catches it after the player who fails his GFI roll has ended his Move Action.

I agree - and if you consider a similar situation where a pass is failed and scatters multiple times it can still land on a player from same team as the thrower.

[CyberedElf]

Does failing a GFI end an action? Yes.

And causes a turnover, see p. 7.

Has the ball been caught in the EZ at the end of an action?

No, it was caught after the end of an action. Because it was a turnover, the rules give explicit order of events.

Nowhere does it say the TD has to be immediately when the action ends, just after the end of an action.

Actually, that is exactly what the rules you quoted say.

holding the ball at the end of any of your players' Actions.

(My emphasis.)
At the end of the Action, not "just after the end of an action." The rules on turnovers specify the Action ending before armor rolls or ball bounces.

If you want to discuss the difference between "ends immediately" and "at the end" for Actions, I refer you to the thread concerning Hypnotic Gaze and Tentacles. It is well established in that thread that "ends immediately" prevents "at the end."

Hypnotic Gaze is performed "at the end of his Move Action". This means it has to be part of the Move Action. If it was intended to be something used after the action was ended it would read "after the Move Action is ended" not "at the end of his Move Action".

. . . in reference to Tentacles "the moving player is held firm, and his Action ends immediately."

Some people are still trying to confuse the issue with Pass Actions. It is a different situation. If you would like to discuss when a Pass Action ends, please start a separate thread.

[Aliboon]

Sorry CyberElf, you are wrong. I tried to explain it using the Pass Action analogy so that you could understand why you are wrong but it unfortunately didn't seem to work. If your interpretation was correct then the only way a player could score in their own turn would be if they ran it it, so they scored at the end of their Movement Action. You are now confusing matters by quoting Galak regarding a specific Tentacles/Hypnotic Gaze interaction, which is a completely different scenario and explains why a tentacled player can't Hypnogaze a player who has just caught them in their tentacles.

At the end of the Action, not "just after the end of an action." The rules on turnovers specify the Action ending before armor rolls or ball bounces.

And also not immediately at the end of the Action which is the meaning you are wrongly inferring from p15 of the rulebook.

[Be4ch]

I've lost track of what we're even arguing about. Isn't it just a case of when the TD takes place in this situation? If a player enters the end zone and fails a GFI then it's a turnover, your turn has ended. The rules on turnovers say:

"...any action being taken ends immediately even if it was only partially completed. Make armour and injury rolls for the player that was knocked down, and if the ball was dropped roll to see where it bounces to normally. Stunned players should be turned face up , and then the opposing coach may start to take his turn."

So the sequence of events seems to be:

1. Turnover occurs
2. Turn Ends
3. Resolve armour/injury
4. Bounce ball
5. Opposing player begins turn.

If the bounced ball is caught by in the end zone by a player on the same team as the one who failed a GFI then he can't score in his own turn as his turn had ended at point 2 and the bouncing ball is not resolved until point 4. A point AFTER the players turn has already ended.

Once the opponent starts his turn (point 5), however, you would score immediately. The rules for scoring state that:

"...If one of your players is holding the ball in the opposing team's end zone at any point during your opponent's turn then your team scores a touchdown immediately, but must move their Turn marker one space along the Turn track to represent the extra time spent celebrating this unusual method of scoring!"

So you would score the TD but you would also lose a turn.

If the failed GFI was in your T8 and the opposition had no turns left then a TD would not be scored as the Turn would have ended at the point the GFI failed and with no further opposition turns to play, the game would end before the TD could be scored even if the bouncing ball was caught by one of your players.

[Regash]

...any action being taken ends immediately even if it was only partially completed.

Sorry, but you're wrong with no. 2 on your list.
It is the ACTION that ends immediately, not the TURN!

So, I'd say, the sequence should be more like this:

1. Turnover occurs
2. Action ends immediately
3. Resolve armor/injury
4. Resolve ball movement if dropped
5. Resolve stunned players
6. Turn ends

Resolving the ball movement means not only to see where it goes but also see if it's being catched. Therefore TD is scored in the same turn as the failed GFI.

[Darkson]

Exactly. There is no "between turn" phase in the rules, which be4ch's list would require.

[Be4ch]

...any action being taken ends immediately even if it was only partially completed.

Sorry, but you're wrong with no. 2 on your list.
It is the ACTION that ends immediately, not the TURN!

So, I'd say, the sequence should be more like this:

1. Turnover occurs
2. Action ends immediately
3. Resolve armor/injury
4. Resolve ball movement if dropped
5. Resolve stunned players
6. Turn ends

Resolving the ball movement means not only to see where it goes but also see if it's being catched. Therefore TD is scored in the same turn as the failed GFI.

No, you are wrong. The rules clearly state that :

"Normally, a turn only ends when all of the players in a team have performed an action. However, certain events cause the turn to end before all players have taken an action. These events are called turnovers. The following events cause a turnover:"

The first event in the subsequent list is a player on the moving team is knocked down. A GFI knocks a player down. His action ends immediately, as per the GFI failure rule, and the turn ends as per the turnover rule. You might want the rule to work differently but it seems quite clear. It certainly doesn't require a 'between turn' phase. The GFI rule in particular states that:

"If the player is knocked down then his team suffers a turnover and their turn ends immediately"

Their turn ends immediately. The action has ended with a player on the floor, the ball is on the floor and the turn has ended. You resolve the bouncing ball but the turn has already ended. You can't score in your turn in that circumstance, you would score immediately that your opponent begins their turn. If they have no turns left as it's the end of the half or the game, then you can't score.

[Regash]

There is no "between turn" phase in the rules

This!
The phrase "turn ends immediately" means, at least to me, that you have to end your turn right there.
And ending a turn includes resolving all those things like armor or injury rolls, bouncing and caught balls and what not.

the ball is on the floor

Nope, it's not!
The guy carrying it has fallen over and dropped it. Until it has been bounced (and maybe even caught) it is not considered "on the floor".
Somewhere in the rules the phrase "the ball comes to rest" is used, which is, in my opinion, clearly underlining my point.

[Be4ch]

the ball is on the floor

Nope, it's not!
The guy carrying it has fallen over and dropped it. Until it has been bounced (and maybe even caught) it is not considered "on the floor".
Somewhere in the rules the phrase "the ball comes to rest" is used, which is, in my opinion, clearly underlining my point.[/quote]

Ok, the ball is bouncing but the turn has ended the moment the GFI failed. The phrase regarding the ball coming to rest is used in conjunction with the passing rule to point out that a turnover on an inaccurate pass or a failed catch does not occur until the ball finally comes to rest and is not in the hands of a player on your team. there's nothing about it regarding bouncing balls. It doesn't underline your point at all.

This all rather moot anyway. To score a TD a player must be standing in the end zone at the end of any players action. You make a move action, you fail a GFI, your action ends. At the end of the action the ball is bouncing and you haven't scored. Even if I concede the point about your turn ending, nobody was standing in the end zone with the ball at the end of the action. They may have the ball after the action has ended but that's different and does not satisfy the requirement for a scoring touchdown in your turn.

This, in my opinion, clearly underlines my point.