Fumbles... have we been playing wrong all along?

[celticgriffon]

Please let me know if this is correct... I went to pass a ball with my 5ag elf thinking anything but a 1 would hit the long pass mark.. and lo and behold I was deceived..

Fumbl'z Aggghhh!

Zoo… Der az been zum grumbl’n reegardyn fumbl'z.

Yt tuk zum ‘ead zkratch’n tu fyg’r ytz owt. Butz I’z gut yt nowz.

Un.) Git da bawl.

Un und un.) Dekler ur gunna pazz.

Un und un und un.) Gitz wyth pazz blawk goz.

Fowr.) Do dem ynterzeptun’z.

Un ‘and.) Rowl a dee syx fur da pazz.

Un ‘and un Un.) Zee yf ya fumbl’d yt. Subtwak’t un frum yur dee syx fur eech of deez t’yngz: Un) eech takl zown, Un und un) un yf lowng pazz or un und un yf lowng bawmb. Un und un und un) yf yer u ‘av’lyng, gobbo, ur snot, ur faree, ur mutynt stunty, ur u gozt ur watyv’r. 
Add un fur eech of deez t’yngz: Un) kwyk pazz, Un und Un) yf yur akuryt, Un und Un und Un) yf ya got u ztrawng rm n ytz a lowng pazz or lowng bawmb. Yf yt’z Un ur lez dan Un ya goof’d yt.

Un ‘and und Un und Un.) Zee yf yt’z akuryt. Du ull uv de abuv wyt yur agylyty. Yf yer un elf ya kan skyp diz part.

Aggghhh… I gyv’z up… 

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Translation (via Luv'n da Ork Luva):
So... There has been some grumbling regarding fumbles. 

It took some head scratching to figure it out but I have it now.

1. Declare you are going to pass the ball.
2. Get the ball
3. Players with pass block do their thing.
4. See if anyone intercepts and then try to nullify with safe throw.
5. Roll a d6 for the pass.
6. See if you fumble the ball. 
From your d6 roll subtract the following: 1) "1" for each tackle zone, 2) "1" for a long pass or "2" for a long bomb, 3) "1" if you are a snotling, goblin, halfing, fairy, mutant stunty, a ghost or whatever. 
Add one to the roll for the following: 1) "1" for a quick pass, 2) "1" if you have accurate, 3) "1" if you have strong arm and threw a short pass, long pass or a long bomb.
7. Do some math. If the final number is one or less you goofed (fumbled).
8. If not fumbled see if it is accurate. If you are an elf you can skip this part. (yes, this means you recalculate the roll based on your agility and the same modifiers...

Aggghhh… I give up.

~Da Big Green 'Un

[adhansa]

I think it simplest to remember that for AG3 if you fail with 3 or more you fumble, and for AG4 2.
I don't get point nr 8 about elves.

[celticgriffon]

Hey Adhansa,

My comment about elves was tongue in cheek.. So was the ghost and fairy comments..

Ag 4, 5, 6, 7, to infinity can fumble a pass on a 2 or even 3 even if not in a tackle zone.

Example - my AG 5 High Elf makes a long pass and rolls a "2". This player does not have any passing skills such as accurate, nerves of steel, or strong arm.

Let's check:
1) No tackle zones - check
2) -1 for long pass - uggh

Modified result is now a 1 = fumble.

Ag 12 makes a long bomb in one tackle zone and rolls a "4". Again this player has no passing skills:
1) 1 tackle zone subtracts 1 to the die taking it to a "3".
2) Long Bomb subtracts another 2 taking it to a "1".

Modified result is now a 1 = fumble.

Rules experts - is this correct?

Cheers,
Michael

[Regash]

I don't see the problem here.

A roll of 1 before modification always fails and a roll of 6 before modification always succeeds.

The passing rules are pretty clear on page 12 of the CRP.
What I do:

• measure the pass range
• check for "Strong Arm" and reduce the pass range by one if the skill is there
• find pass range modifier
  • Quick Pass → +1 | Short Pass → 0 | Long Pass → -1 | Long Bomb → -2
• check for "Nerves of Steel" and ignore tackle zones if the skill is there
• otherwise, count all enemy tackle zones on the throwing player
• make your pass roll
• subtract the number of enemy tackle zones from your roll
• also subtract or add the pass range modifier
• compare the final result with the target roll of the agility table
  • AG1 → 6+ | AG2 → 5+ | AG3 → 4+ | AG4 → 3+ | AG5 → 2+ | AG6 → 1+

Any result equal or higher than your target roll is an accurate pass, any result lower than your target pass in an inaccurate pass.

For AG5 the target roll is 2 or better.
So, if after all the adding and subtracting is done and your rolls result is 2 or better, your pass is accurate.
If it is a 1 or less, it would be an inaccurate pass.

So much for the basic rules... But:

Fumbles
Sometimes a player attempting to throw the ball will drop it in his own square. This is more likely if the player has any opposing players breathing down his neck! To represent this, if the D6 roll for a pass is 1 or less before or after modification, then the thrower has fumbled and dropped the ball.

This basically means that an AG5 player can't throw an inaccurate pass!
With this extra rule, any result of 1 or less turns into a fumble while any result of 2 or better is an accuarte pass for an AG5 player.
So, not even an AG6 or higher player can throw an inaccurate pass or have 1 as target roll.
All players AG 5 or better always are on target or fumble. Agility doesn't help you with fumbles, it just makes accurate passes easier.

Yep, your calculations are correct.

[celticgriffon]

Hey Regash,

Strong Arm doesn't add +1 for quick pass range.

I am not so sure your interpretation is correct, but to be fair, that is how I thought it worked.

The reason why I am not so sure is the rules for fumbles don't mention anything about Agility. They just state to add or subtract modifiers to the d6 roll.

The rules for passing (or passing accuracy to be more specific) clearly use Agility, however.

It certainly does feel kinda silly to check two things from two different angles on each pass (Agility and the raw d6 roll)..

Cheers,
Michael

[Regash]

Strong Arm doesn't add +1 for quick pass range.

Nope, but the quick pass itself does!
I have to admit, I haven't seen that the wording of the skill description for Strong Arm has changed.
But that doesn't make any changes to the pass range modifiers.
I'll correct my list:

• measure the pass range and find pass range modifier
  • Quick Pass → +1 | Short Pass → 0 | Long Pass → -1 | Long Bomb → -2
• check for "Nerves of Steel" and ignore tackle zones if the skill is there
• otherwise, count all enemy tackle zones on the throwing player
• make your pass roll
• subtract the number of enemy tackle zones from your roll
• also subtract or add the pass range modifier
• check for "Strong Arm" and add 1 if the pass range is a short pass or higher
• compare the final result with the target roll of the agility table
  • AG1 → 6+ | AG2 → 5+ | AG3 → 4+ | AG4 → 3+ | AG5 → 2+ | AG6 → 1+

It certainly does feel kinda silly to check two things from two different angles on each pass (Agility and the raw d6 roll)

Fumbles
Sometimes a player attempting to throw the ball will drop it in his own square. This is more likely if the player has any opposing players breathing down his neck! To represent this, if the D6 roll for a pass is 1 or less before or after modification, then the thrower has fumbled and dropped the ball.

What other D6 roll are you talking about?

[dode74]

It certainly does feel kinda silly to check two things from two different angles on each pass (Agility and the raw d6 roll)..

I think that's because we are used to modifying the target rather than modifying the roll. When we do an AG4 pass we say we need a 2, when actually we need to make 3 but can apply +1 to the roll. It means exactly the same thing until you start modifying multiple times with multiple potential results (effectively reducing the odds of an inaccurate pass rather than any other result).

[celticgriffon]

So... to go back to my question.

If an AG 5 player throws a Long Pass and rolls a "2" is it a fumble? I am still lost, unfortunately.

Thanks,
Michael

[dode74]

Yes. Long Pass has a -1 modifier so the modified result is a 1.

If he had Accurate it would be a successful pass.

[celticgriffon]

Thanks dode74.

AG therefore has no effect on the fumble calculations.

If any adjustments are made to the next rule-set (assuming things will change) I would love to have this section updated for clarity.

Cheers,
Michael