Illegal Substitution dirty tricks card

[GalakStarscraper]

this threads very existence proves that confusion can happen for either half of this cards rules.

Having done this for a very long time now ...

the existence of a question <> the existence of a wording issue

[Fold]

I'm not sure that's true since the players of the game that come up with these queries are by definition the intended audience

But putting that aside, in this case do you really think that two special plays that are both intended to apply to one player on your team, being worded quite so differently, is good rules wording?

[GalakStarscraper]

Ah okay ... matter of perspective.

1) It is true there are no bad questions. However there are questions that once pointed out the logic of the sentence show that they were answerable just from the sentence itself (or surrounding sentences). This does not mean the rule is poorly written. If you have sign that says that Hot Dogs are $2 each and I ask you how much a Hot Dog is ... it does not mean that the sign is at fault or that the question was bad. IE ... asking a question <> badly written

To be clear ... yes there are some rules that could use some extra love to be more clear ... but they are few and far between that actually need it in this rulebook.

2) Is this card good rules writing. Yes it is. Could it be better ... sure I agree that if you want to add in the extra words you said that it could even better. But could be better <> bad. Not even close. The card as written is clear ... there are numerous reasons already presented that it is clear. Good rules to me are rules that are clear to almost all and can be explained to the few that do not see it as clear. Bad would be rules that confuse more than it is clear to. In this thread ... it is visible that the almost everyone knew how the wording makes the card work except for a few. That is good. What you are suggesting is that if a rule is not perfect that it is badly written. I hope you never go into game design ... you'll spend the rest of your life having people tell you everything you do is badly written by this standard.

[Fold]

It's adequate rules writing because most people would get the point, but it's not good. That there is any doubt about it at all, and the fact the same effect is worded differently within the space of 50 words, surely proves that. Especially when its so very simple to make the rules clear by swapping "any" and "the" with "one" and "your" - something that has been done on the previous card.

There's an awful lot of competitive 40k players out there that would disagree with you when you say rules with any kind of wiggle room are well written. Thing is, I don't think GW ever wrote (and still don't write) "tight" rules that are immune to loopholes and different interpretations. Their games were never intended for an environment that required it.

I recently joined a Blood Bowl league of 32 players who were playing Mighty Blow wrong by saying you had to declare it before rolling. They missed the part earlier on in the rule book that said you can choose whether a skill takes effect after seeing the dice roll, and just reading the skill description that seemed the most logical ruling. So is Mighty Blow well worded?

Anyway, the rules in question aren't going to be reworded so this is pretty academic. But if I ever went into games design and I cared about the clarity of the rules, I'd definitely make sure that a particular effect I intended was worded the same - and unambiguously - in every case.

[GalakStarscraper]

That sounds great. I promise to purchase your game when it comes out or goes on KickStarter.

I mean this very sincerely ... wish you had been helping with the book when it was able to change wordings. I think you would have been a great help.

[Fold]

I think so too. I'm good at simple proof reading.

Descend to condescension and sarcasm all you want but you know I'm right about the clarity of the rules chum.

[GalakStarscraper]

I think so too. I'm good at simple proof reading.

Descend to condescension and sarcasm all you want but you know I'm right about the clarity of the rules chum.

Sorry . no I don't know that you are right ... we agree to disagree on that point.

But I was not using sarcasm or condescension at all. I would buy your game if you came out with one or crowdfunded one. And I do honestly wish you had been at ground zero to help. Both comments were sincere. I don't do condescension and sarcasm if I can avoid it. Sorry that you thought I was ... I hired two professional proofreaders to go through the CRP and made pages worth of changes based on those two reviews. I took every opportunity I could to make every improvement I could. There is no condescension or sarcasm when I say ... I wish you had been with us to help.

[Steam Ball]

You can check Impact crowdfunding campaigns, you will see that "pass it" thing (forgot exact name), in which part of the money is used for others; and he has pledged to different ones as well as helping others to deliver, so he really means it.

As side note for everyone: get at least one non native (but capable in the language) in the reviewer team. That will raise all the "silly" nitpicks about wording early, so the final product is better, specially if the market includes non natives.

[GalakStarscraper]

You can check Impact crowdfunding campaigns, you will see that "pass it" thing (forgot exact name), in which part of the money is used for others; and he has pledged to different ones as well as helping others to deliver, so he really means it.

Thanks. The Pass It Thing is this non-for-profit that I created to use funds from some of Impact!'s miniatures and KickStarters to fund other companies KickStarters ( https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id ... nref=about )

As side note for everyone: get at least one non native (but capable in the language) in the reviewer team. That will raise all the "silly" nitpicks about wording early, so the final product is better, specially if the market includes non natives.

Agreed ... I've been working with a native Italian to create a rulebook for a miniatures game I hope to put on KickStarter next year. Hopefully between the two of us the rules are clear as you suggest.